Dear David,
Thank you for your reply. Of course I agree about most of your assertions, but
I am still very reluctant to adhere to the general enthusiasm regardin the
so-called "tastini". As a matter of fact, I know only one source mentioning
this practise : Galilei's Fronimo. One late sixteenth-century source is a
rather slim piece of evidence to acknowledge this idea as an almost universal
solution to MT tuning problems, including earlier and later repertoire, don't
you think ?
Or maybe you know of other sources describing or explaining clearly this
practise. I don't. Bermudo, Gerle, Le Roy, Dowland, Praetorius, Mersenne (more
or less in chronological order) do not mention this technique for tuning their
lutes "properly".
The passage of Jean Denis (a harpsichord maker in fact, who like all
harpsichord specialists looked down on the lute or viol as an imperfect
instrument because of their supposed tuning limitations) that I sent earlier in
the day speaks of placing frets "en pied de mouche", i.e. in a broken line,
("staggered" as Mark Lindley translates in his book "Lutes, Viols and
Temperaments, OCambridge UP, 1984), not slanted at all, and that is the reason
why he concludes by saying that this can be done by using ivory frets, that can
be cut and placed accordingly... Hardly "tastini" or very drastic ones indeed.
It's true that this sort of fancy fretting was used for some citterns and maybe
bandoras (I am not sure ) but these were metal-strung, not gut-strung, and
doesn't this make a difference in terms of practical intonation ?
Anyway, the bulk of historical evidence is clearly in favour of a more or less
equal temperament when considering fretted instruments like lutes or viols, and
the ear of the musician (not the OT-12 or any other tuner ;-) usually is
recommended to be given the last "word", which, after all, sounds very
reasonnable to me.
All the best,
Jean-Marie
======= 18-06-2008 20:35:42 =======
>Jean-Marie is of course absolutely correct that
>there are contemporaneous accounts advocating
>various distinctions and even clashes of the
>differing temperaments for keyboard and fretted instruments,
>and there were at various times accounts that
>these clashes were good or necessary.
>However, the past is a mixed bag, and when I do a
>concert in meantone, or modified meantone, there
>are times when I want it to be delightfully in
>tune, as opposed to delightfully out-of-tune.
>And for this, we have two pieces of evidence. The
>first is, that tastini were invented exactly for
>this purpose, and because it is kind of a pain to
>implement, they must have really desired the effect.
>The second is the emergence of a "meantone
>favorable tunings"--here we see that in the
>development of the early viola da gamba that the
>F is solidified as an E--in order to move the F-Sharp to a more favorable fret.
>On the plucked side we see the 6 course mandolin
>with both a E and a B as opposed to an F and a C,
>again allowing the sharps to be moved to a more favorable position.
>
>So what we have, of course, is diversity--a
>diversity that refelects in a way the many styles
>of music we play. With cornetto, theorbo and organ, I want it in pure meantone.
>For Corelli, I can enjoy more the different
>temperaments to a greater degree with two
>continuo lutes, organ and harpsichord--and a harp if possible!
>dt
>
>
>At 05:33 AM 6/18/2008, you wrote:
>>Dear Jean-Marie,
>>
>>Many thanks for this interesting passage. It
>>confirms what I was saying, i.e. that keyboard
>>instruments were tuned with unequal semitones,
>>that the lute and viol were tuned in equal
>>temperament, and that fretted instruments were
>>regarded as inferior, because they were in equal temperament.
>>
>>There is however, a problem when fretted
>>instruments and keyboard instruments are played
>>together. In your passage, the solution of
>>tuning keyboard instruments to equal temperament
>>is rejected as unsatisfactory. It should be the
>>other way round, i.e. fretted instruments tuning
>>to the keyboard. A lute or viol cannot be
>>fretted 100% in a meantone temperament, but one
>>can get pretty close, give or take a few dodgy
>>enharmonics. I assume Denis' ivory frets are what some of us call tastini now.
>>
>>The question I would like answering, is how were
>>viols fretted, when they played consort music to
>>the organ. On page 242 of _Musick's Monument_,
>>Thomas Mace says that the main job of an organ
>>is to help keep the viols in tune:
>>
>>"Because the Organ stands us in stead of a
>>Holding, Uniting-Constant-Friend; and is as a
>>Touch-stone, to try the certainty of All Things;
>>especially the Well-keeping the Instruments in Tune, &c."
>>
>>If the viols and organ were in different
>>temperaments, the last thing an equally-tempered
>>viol player would want, is an unequally tempered
>>organ telling him he was out of tune all the
>>time. I conclude from Mace's remark, that viols
>>playing in consort with an organ, would have
>>adjusted their frets as close as they could to
>>match the temperament of the organ.
>>
>>In this context, I continue my speculation that
>>baroque lutes (in all their various tunings)
>>were not played with keyboard instruments,
>>because there were too many problems getting the
>>instruments in tune with each other. I am aware
>>that Weiss and Baron composed music for flute
>>and lute, but they are very much the exception.
>>A baroque flute is not in equal temperament, but
>>a good player can bend notes a little to alter
>>the pitch, something a keyboard player cannot do.
>>
>>Best wishes,
>>
>>Stewart.
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Jean-Marie Poirier [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>Sent: 18 June 2008 12:53
>>To: lute
>>Subject: [LUTE] Re: Meantone
>>
>>Dear Stewart and all,
>>
>>I am not a great enthusiast of meantone
>>temperament as a result of my readings of
>>concordant theoretical sources which do not seem
>>to advocate this particular tuning, and of my
>>experience in consort playing. Of course, I do
>>use it when requested to, no problem, but not so
>>often after all. And I would like to have your
>>opinion about this passage from Jean Denis,
>>"Traité de l'accord de l'espinette", Paris :
>>Ballard, 1601 (I know it's in French, but IMO
>>it's much better to approach this sort of text
>>in its original language), one among several of
>>the same period on the same subject :
>>
>>"Les Theoriciens trouvent trois sortes de tons,
>>et trois sortes de semi-tons, sçavoir ton
>>majeur, ton mineur, et ton superflu; et aussi
>>trois sortes de semi-tons, semi-ton majeur,
>>semi-ton mineur, et semi-ton moyen, ce qui n'est
>>point en usage, sçavoir le ton mineur, et le
>>semi-ton moyen; et pour faire le ton mineur, il
>>est composé d'un semi-ton moyen et d'un
>>semi-ton mineur plus foible que le ton majeur:
>>Mais dans la pratique de la Musique, et en
>>nostre accord Harmonique, il ne [-p.12-] se
>>trouve point de ton mineur, ny de semiton moyen:
>>la difference des deux accords est, qu'en
>>l'accord qu'on nous presente, il n'y a ny
>>semi-ton majeur ny semi-ton mineur, mais le
>>semi-ton moyen et le ton majeur pareils aux
>>nostres; car pour faire le semi-ton moyen, on
>>baisse le semi-ton majeur, et ce faisant on
>>hausse le mineur, et par ce moyen tous les
>>semi-tons sont égaux. Or estant en l'assemblée
>>de fort honnestes gens, et entendant cet accord
>>que je trouvay fort mauuais et fort rude
>>Ã l'oreille, leur disant mon sentiment, et que
>>personne ne le pouvoit trouver bon, ils me
>>respondirent que ie n'y estois pas accoustumé.
>>Et je leurs dis, que si on leur presentoit un
>>festin de viandes amères et de mauvais goust,
>>et qu'on leur donnast du vinaigre à boire, dont
>>ils se pourroient plaindre avec raison: si on
>>leur disoit qu'ils n'y sont pas accoustumez, ce
>>ne seroit pas une bonne raison et bien
>>recevable, je voulus sçavoir à quoy cet accord
>>estoit bon; celuy qui avoit accordé l'Espinette
>>me dit qu'il estoit bon pour en jouër, et
>>détonner de semi-ton en semi-ton, et que tous
>>les accords se trouvoient bons par tout, et
>>qu'il s'accordoit mieux que le nostre avec le Luth et la Viole.
>>Je luy dis qu'il avoit mauvaise raison de
>>vouloir gaster le bon et parfait accord pour
>>l'accommoder à des Instruments imparfaits, et
>>qu'il falloit plustost chercher la perfection du
>>Luth et de la Viole, et trouver le moyen de
>>faire que les semi-tons fussent majeurs et
>>mineurs, comme nous les avons sur l'Espinette,
>>ce qui ne se peut faire avec les touches des
>>cordes dont on touche les Luths, pource qu'il
>>faudroit qu'elles fussent faites en pieds de
>>mousches; ce qui se peut faire par le moyen des
>>touches d'yvoire, que lon peut mettre par le
>>compas et par la proportion du Monochorde, et
>>par ce moyen on accordera le Luth et la Viole,
>>avec l'Espinnette, dans l'accord [-p.13-] musical et harmonique..."
>>
>>In other words, it looks as if : keyboard
>>intruments = meantone temperamen ; fretted
>>instruments (lutes and viols) = equal temperament it seems...
>>
>>All the best,
>>
>>Jean-Marie
>>
>>
>>======= 18-06-2008 11:40:45 =======
>>
>> >
>> >Dear Anthony,
>> >
>> >In writing "close to equal temperament", I was deliberately a little
>> >vague, because I have the frets on the baroque lute and guitar more or
>> >less equally spaced, but I haven't measured anything exactly. I use a
>> >tuning box and my ear. I think that's what they usually did in the past,
>> >but without the box.
>> >
>> >Best wishes,
>> >
>> >Stewart.
>> >
>> >-----Original Message-----
>> >From: Anthony Hind [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> >Sent: 18 June 2008 10:29
>> >To: Stewart McCoy
>> >Subject: Re: [LUTE] New Baroque lute/Meantone
>> >
>> >Stewart
>> > Could you make your "close to equal temperament" a little more
>> >precise.
>> >Perhaps that is not possible if you do it entirely by ear.
>> >Anthony
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >To get on or off this list see list information at
>> >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
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>>18-06-2008
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