David, I did not mean to imply that "only" ivory was used for tastini. It's Jean Denis who in 1601 wrote that ivory "can" be used to that purpose on fretted instruments. Not a nuance, a gap ;-))
Jean-Marie, apologies accepted ! :-)) ======= 19-06-2008 01:01:22 ======= > >I don't think the evidence is thin: I think the evidence is >substantial; however I consider the weight of the evidence to show >that the practice was uncommon--but important, worth debating. > >In other words the "thinness" is in the number of people who >practiced the technique, rather than in the solid evidence that it was used. >Actually, I wish I could be thinner as well; it can be a good thing. > >As for the "staggered" frets only being made of ivory, that seems a >bit of a stretch. I love the expression "en pied de mouche", though, >if it really means "fly-steps"--It could mean almost anything, I think.... >perhaps a bunch of tastini would look like flysteps, like viewing >theorbos from the moon. >Not to mention the Locke meantone piece for Trois Mouche-quetaires. > >Apologies in advance, > >dt > > > >At 02:57 PM 6/18/2008, you wrote: >>Dear Jean-Marie, >> >>You are right that evidence for tastini is thin on the ground, so all >>the more reason not to overlook the evidence provided by Christopher >>Simpson. In his _Compendium_ he mentions the use of an extra first fret >>by some players of the viol and theorbo. I have the modern edition of >>the original 2nd edition of 1667, edited by Philip Lord (Oxford: Basil >>Blackwell, 1970). The relevant passage begins on page 51: >> >>"I do not deny but that the slitting of the keys in harpsichords and >>organs, as also the placing of a middle fret near the top or nut of a >>viol or theorbo where the space is wide, may be useful in some cases for >>the sweetening of such dissonances as may happen in those places; but I >>do not conceive that the enharmonic scale is therein concerned, seeing >>those dissonances are sometimes more, sometimes less, and seldom that >>any of them do hit precisely the quarter of a note." >> >>He goes on to say that singers, violinists, and players of wind >>instruments, can adjust the pitch of their notes, unlike players of >>keyboards and fretted instruments. The fact that fretted instruments >>sound out of tune when they modulate to less familiar keys, must surely >>mean that he has in mind unequal fretting for them. This passage is so >>important in relation to the present discussion, that I feel it is worth >>reproducing Simpson's next two paragraphs, in spite of their length: >> >>"Now as to my opinion concerning our common scale of music, taking it >>with its mixture of the chromatic, I think it lies not in the wit of man >>to frame a better as to all intents and purposes for practical music. >>And as for those little dissonances (for so I call them) for want of a >>better word to express them) the fault is not in the scale, whose office >>and design is no more than to denote the distances of the concords and >>discords according to the lines and spaces of which it doth consist, and >>to show by what degrees of tones and semitones a voice may rise and >>fall. >> >>For in vocal music those dissonances are not perceived, neither do they >>occur in instruments which have no frets as violins and wind instruments >>where the sound is modulated by the touch of the finger; but in such >>only as have fixed stops or frets, which being placed and fitted for the >>most usual keys in the scale, seem out of order when we change to keys >>less usual, and that (as I said) doth happen by reason of the inequality >>of tones and semitones, especially of the latter." >> >>Best wishes, >> >>Stewart. >> >> >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Jean-Marie Poirier [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >>Sent: 18 June 2008 21:58 >>To: lute >>Subject: [LUTE] Re: Meantone >> >>Dear David, >> >>Thank you for your reply. Of course I agree about most of your >>assertions, but I am still very reluctant to adhere to the general >>enthusiasm regardin the so-called "tastini". As a matter of fact, I know >>only one source mentioning this practise : Galilei's Fronimo. One late >>sixteenth-century source is a rather slim piece of evidence to >>acknowledge this idea as an almost universal solution to MT tuning >>problems, including earlier and later repertoire, don't you think ? >>Or maybe you know of other sources describing or explaining clearly this >>practise. I don't. Bermudo, Gerle, Le Roy, Dowland, Praetorius, Mersenne >>(more or less in chronological order) do not mention this technique for >>tuning their lutes "properly". >>The passage of Jean Denis (a harpsichord maker in fact, who like all >>harpsichord specialists looked down on the lute or viol as an imperfect >>instrument because of their supposed tuning limitations) that I sent >>earlier in the day speaks of placing frets "en pied de mouche", i.e. in >>a broken line, ("staggered" as Mark Lindley translates in his book >>"Lutes, Viols and Temperaments, OCambridge UP, 1984), not slanted at >>all, and that is the reason why he concludes by saying that this can be >>done by using ivory frets, that can be cut and placed accordingly... >>Hardly "tastini" or very drastic ones indeed. >>It's true that this sort of fancy fretting was used for some citterns >>and maybe bandoras (I am not sure ) but these were metal-strung, not >>gut-strung, and doesn't this make a difference in terms of practical >>intonation ? >> >>Anyway, the bulk of historical evidence is clearly in favour of a more >>or less equal temperament when considering fretted instruments like >>lutes or viols, and the ear of the musician (not the OT-12 or any other >>tuner ;-) usually is recommended to be given the last "word", which, >>after all, sounds very reasonnable to me. >> >>All the best, >> >>Jean-Marie >> >> >> >> >>To get on or off this list see list information at >>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Orange vous informe que cet e-mail a ete controle par l'anti-virus mail. >Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte. > > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://poirierjm.free.fr 19-06-2008
