I think it is a blessing that there are those pioneers, who will test the new/old string technology, and tell the results to us others! Otherwise we still were playing with nylon strings? Or perhaps - without the early pioneers - we were still playing with gut strings?
Anyhow, as a player, I very interested listen the news about the new ways of loading gut strings, etc., etc., and I still happily play my synthetics! And not only nylgut - also "carbon" works very well here and there... ;-) Best, Arto On 3/27/2009, "Roman Turovsky" <[email protected]> wrote: > A good enough reason to stick to Savarez copperwounds and get on with it, > idnit? > RT > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Martyn Hodgson" <[email protected]> > To: "Roman Turovsky" <[email protected]> > Cc: "lute List" <[email protected]> > Sent: Friday, March 27, 2009 11:15 AM > Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Loaded Silk/gut questions 1 > > > > Roman, > > I suppose there must be. My work mostly involves theorbo (and sometimes > guitar) continuo but I try to play other lutes when I can. I'm becoming > increasingly disenchanted with the basses I generally use on these (usually > from the 6th course down) which are Kurschner KN (ie plain copper wound) and > whilst being significantly less 'zingy' than, say, Pyramid etc (especially > if 'played in') still have, it seems to me, too much edge, upper harmonics > and sustain. Hence my interest in the loaded alternative and especially an > affordable one for these lutes. For example, the 13 course Dm lute with > loaded from the 6th bass down would cost getting on for 300GBPs for the > loaded strings alone. > > MH > > --- On Fri, 27/3/09, Roman Turovsky <[email protected]> wrote: > > > From: Roman Turovsky <[email protected]> > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Loaded Silk/gut questions 1 > To: "alexander" <[email protected]>, "Martyn Hodgson" > <[email protected]> > Cc: "lute List" <[email protected]> > Date: Friday, 27 March, 2009, 2:43 PM > > > Martyn, > There are a myriad ways to avoid actually PLAYING them > lutes.................................. > RT > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Martyn Hodgson" <[email protected]> > To: "alexander" <[email protected]> > Cc: "lute List" <[email protected]> > Sent: Friday, March 27, 2009 10:38 AM > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Loaded Silk/gut questions 1 > > > > > > > > Many thanks for this detailed reply - I'll have to digest it before > > seeing if I'm capable of doing anything realistic. > > > > But first a couple more questions: > > > > 1. As an adhesive to bind the filaments together you use agar/salt: > > could one use an adhesive like PVA which is flexible and possibly > > easier to use and possibly rather more resistant to moisture? > > > > 2. Why does one need to start with individual filaments (eg 300 of > > 20/22Denier) - could one not start with silk twine which I note the > > firm you mentioned also offers? Presumably the twine is twisted evenely > > so much of the work is done. > > > > --- On Fri, 27/3/09, alexander <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > From: alexander <[email protected]> > > Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Loaded Silk/gut questions 1 > > To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[email protected]> > > Cc: "lute List" <[email protected]> > > Date: Friday, 27 March, 2009, 12:22 PM > > > > I will gladly share with you the process i have used. It might be a > > starting point for anyone. Unwillingness to spend money so many times > > led to great discoveries!.. > > For me a difficult point to begin with, was to get a smooth string in > > the end. While gut string can be polished and the short filaments stay > > locked in, with the resulting smooth surface, silk filament are harder > > and will protrude, making for a hairy appearance. I am not sure by the > > way, if a loaded gut string is not suffering from the same problem?.. > > Here is the most successful technique i could come up with. > > I used raw silk - continuous filament silk which has fibroin and > > sericin in it. There were a few suppliers in the UK, for example > > [1]http://www.gaddum.co.uk/silk/silk-yarns/ , you can see 100% > > Filament Raw Silk, > > available in 20/22D, that would be the one. A good starting point would > > be about 300 filaments of 20/22Denier - a goal being some third or > > fourth off-the neck bass string. On refinement other strings can be > > calculated accordingly. > > These 300 filaments of raw silk (of a proper length, let's say 170 cm) > > are tied at the ends, so that you have a nice parallel filaments that > > can be twisted in the end. > > Now this silk has to be degummed - the sericin needs to be removed. I > > done this using soda ash with a mild soap - not too much of either, > > just so that the mixture starts feeling slippery between your fingers, > > but not slimy. (the same supplier probably has a proper degumming mix). > > Use a pot large enough to suspend the silk from some sort of a stick- > > the goal being that all of the silk in loose form gets cooked. After 40 > > -45 minutes near boiling temperature, with a gentle moving about, rinse > > the silk well, possibly wash once more with a mild soap, and finally > > rinse with distilled water, to avoid extra minerals. All this has to be > > done with a smooth skin hands, rubber gloves did not work for me. > > Tiniest filaments start trying to hair out, and the fewer are caught on > > the skin, the better. > > This bunch of silk can be soaked in the mixture of the salt right at > > this point. It will need to be gently moved around, to ensure a good > > contact. I found a temperature about 40C to be well manageable. At > > higher temperatures the rate of swelling seems less predictable. For > > cinnabar about 45 minutes is a good starting point. As we are standing > > near the pot, let me tell you were i found the cinnabar. I simply went > > to the Kremer Pigmente, which has stores all over the Europe and in > > NYC. There might be a cheaper source, as cinnabar actually is not such > > a rare mineral. > > Now, starting from this particular process i used heavy rubber gloves, > > for obvious reasons. > > Getting silk out of the pot, put it onto some paper towels, to soak out > > water while leaving the salts in. This is a good moment to attach two > > small hooks to the ends of the filaments and carefully align the > > filaments again, while doing this. > > Now we need a glue that will hold the string together. I like the > > agar-agar mixed with sea salt, to provide flexibility. Sturgeon glue > > with a drop of honey has good qualities, too. Hang the string between > > two points and carefully work the glue in. After it is well spread, > > start twisting the string. Between a few twists you might want to run > > (carefully) your fingers over the string, to make sure the filaments > > align well. Twist to a desired degree, certainly so that at a > > reasonable tension, the string does not bunch into ugly bumps. Hang > > some weights (stretch) and let it dry overnight. > > At this point, if not totally successful, the string might have some > > uneven spots, due to filaments lying unevenly. Take the cinnabar > > pigment and mix with some more of the same glue, a bit heavier then the > > initial mix. Paint your string. Here is the work for an artist! > > An improvised dye, made of a loop of wire, could insure an even > > diameter all through the string. > > I think, also a good quality oil paint can be used. Just be aware of > > the drying times. > > A good varnish, based on oil-resin-accelerator will seal in the job. > > Easy enough. Definitely easier then working with gut. > > I should mention, that on discussing this matter with a professional > > silk thread dyer, he offered to do the whole process, as he does it > > every day anyway, safe for the final glueing and twisting. This sort of > > cooperation might be a better way? > > I do not know anything about the gut wetting. Also, i don't think you > > can provide enough loading just by painting the outside of the gut. > > However, i could be mistaken. > > alexander > > On Fri, 27 Mar 2009 08:36:54 +0000 (GMT) > > Martyn Hodgson <[2][email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > Alexandar and Anthony, > > > > > > I find this correspondance very interesting since I'm considering > > > wether I can possibly afford to string all my lutes with Mimmo's > > new > > > loaded gut but am being equivocal due to the high cost: ie > > > many A-L-100s. The possibility of do-it-yourself loading to result > > in a > > > roughly comparable product is therefore very attractive: I presume > > one > > > can obtain the copper salt almost anywhere but where can one > > obtain the > > > plain silk strings? > > > > > > You mention mercuriuc sulphate as cinnabar (are they the same?): > > > obviously the reluctance of Mimmo and others to use mercury or its > > > compounds is the high risk of health damage - is mercuric > > > sulphate/cinnabar inert? > > > > > > Finally, accepting that processed gut is difficult/impossible(?) > > to > > > load effectively is there a (simple) way to encourage it to take > > on > > > loading. I recall many years ago someone mentioning a 'wetting' > > agent > > > which didn't cause gut to sweel but enable processed gut to be > > > processed more - any thoughts? > > > > > > Martyn > > > > -- > > > > References > > > > 1. http://www.gaddum.co.uk/silk/silk-yarns/ > > 2. > > http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > > > > > > > > > >
