Alexandar and Anthony, I find this correspondance very interesting since I'm considering wether I can possibly afford to string all my lutes with Mimmo's new loaded gut but am being equivocal due to the high cost: ie many A-L-100s. The possibility of do-it-yourself loading to result in a roughly comparable product is therefore very attractive: I presume one can obtain the copper salt almost anywhere but where can one obtain the plain silk strings?
You mention mercuriuc sulphate as cinnabar (are they the same?): obviously the reluctance of Mimmo and others to use mercury or its compounds is the high risk of health damage - is mercuric sulphate/cinnabar inert? Finally, accepting that processed gut is difficult/impossible(?) to load effectively is there a (simple) way to encourage it to take on loading. I recall many years ago someone mentioning a 'wetting' agent which didn't cause gut to sweel but enable processed gut to be processed more - any thoughts? Martyn --- On Thu, 26/3/09, alexander <[email protected]> wrote: From: alexander <[email protected]> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Loaded Silk/gut questions 1 To: "Anthony Hind" <[email protected]> Cc: "lute List" <[email protected]> Date: Thursday, 26 March, 2009, 2:03 PM I apologize for the "inline" response. > I apologize for taking so long to respond. Please take any statement, > as a question. > > Dear Alexander > Thanks once more for your second text. I still haven't > quite digested all the implications of the first, but have a few > questions and remarks about the loaded silk string hypothesis. > I understand that the way you have loaded your silk strings, using > agar-agar to "glue" copper powder onto a silk core, resembles the way > Mimmo loads his Venice (even if the gluing agent is different); while > in the traditional silk loading process, the silk absorbs the loading > material, but also expands (so maintains the same density)? Density increases due to the loading material: copper's specific gravity is about 6.5 times that of gut or silk (both at 1.3 with copper at 8.9), lead's SG is 11.3, and mercury's 13.5 - over ten times weight of gut or silk. Respectively the heavier metal will offer the smallest diameter after loading. > > > "Even now I use two copper powder loaded silk strings on treble > > gamba and one on eight course lute. All of them are made with > > mixture of agar-agar and sea salt." Alexander > > Is the agar-agar method attested anywhere (not that it would be a > problem if it wasn't, just for information)? As i mentioned, my use of agar is in substitution for the animal glues (bone, sinew, etc). The animal glues were the single most used type of glues in Europe since ... the first animal was consumed for food? Are they true, I mean, > could you manage to make the loading spread evenly (as Mimmo finally > seems to have been able to do)? Are they fairly long lasting? Basically, running over the string a loop of the needed diameter while the string is being twisted, insures even loading. However, personally i just allow the silk to absorb as much metal as it wants. At a given temperature it absorbs "so much in this many minutes". Longer time - more absorption, up to the certain limit. I'm aware of one copper loaded silk string that i made 7 years ago, that is still being used on a fidel. No signs of damage there. They seem to wear as well as any other string. > According to the loinl in your message about loaded silk material, > apparently the material can become fragile due to loading. > [1]http://ion.asu.edu/cool61_wtdsilk/cool61_thumb.htm > It either sounds as though the silk can't bear the weight of the > loading, or that the metal oxide cristals cut through the texture of > the silk. I do not think that is an issue in a tightly twisted string, as the mechanical damage happens in the filaments rubbing against each other, while let's say, the silk pants are being worn. In the string both the filaments and the metal particles move together. > > If silk strings had been loaded in a way similar to yours (and not by > the direct method), I would tend to suppose gut-loading was the > original process (derived from leather dyeing), and that it may have > been transferred back to silk strings. In which case, silk would have > just been an alternative material for loading strings. Again, if i leave silk filaments in a solution of any metallic salt (or even in properly suspended metal pigment), it just absorbs. Neither gut or raw leather will do so. So, silk does the absorption naturally, leather or gut have to be forced or tricked into it. This excludes your suggested sequence. > > On the other hand, had it been possible to load by the direct method, > while using some chemical agent to prevent material expansion > (perhaps as the Chinese cloth dyers do), or by using a very dense > metal, then silk loading would perhaps have been the original loaded > string. I don't really have the knowledge to refine that question. I > agree that the fact that Mimmo's loaded strings work, could be an > argument in itself, but perhaps yours work equally well? > What sort of difference of sound is there between a silk and a gut > loaded, if you have been able to make such tests? Is the sustain for > example different? Honestly, i just did not invest enough time in making loaded silk strings. I am a musician, not a string maker, really. According to my database, out of 4000 string operations (most long strings, then cut into individual) about 100 are loaded strings. Obviously, majority is an experiment of one sort or another, different techniques and such. The strings loaded by metal salt absorption offer a better sustain then the plain silk itself. More metal -more sustain, i would hazard to say. I did not intentionally compare with loaded gut, no. > > The main question (before considering other historical points) is > whether you have succeed in raising the density of your silk diapason > sufficiently to make them thin enough to be in tune with their > octaves, and to reduce inharmonicity problem of thick pure gut bass; > thus making it possible string small Baroque lutes (Charles Mouton) > without resorting to wirewounds. That they should be able to pass > through the typical small historical bridge hole test, is just a > confirmation of this problematic, not an arbitrary hoop through which > modern string makers need to jump to prove their competence. > At one point i did aim for the bridge hole sizes specified by Mimmo. I could not get enough weight from copper pigment for that, but cinnabar (mercuric sulfate) seamed to offer about the right diameters. I recall that cinnabar was used for about everything, including coloring the drinks!.. and food. > The only "historicity" problem I find for the silk loaded basses, is > that Mace stated that Pistoy Basses seemed to be thick Venice Catline > Meanes. > "There is another sort of strings, which they call Pistoy basses, > which I conceive are none other than thick Venice-Catlins, which are > commonly dyed, with a deep dark red colour." Mace (the text is > ambiguous about which strings are red: Venice or Pistoy, or both?) > > This seems to imply that they both looked quite similar. Could your > loaded silk string be confused with a thicker gut Meanes string (if > Venice are gut)? > I suppose with exterior loading, the core material might be less > obvious. Unless, of course the Catlines were also silk, as your > etymological exercise attempts to show, deriving it from "caterpillar > gut" (gut from the caterpillar?). Personally, I think etymology on a > single word is generally difficult to confirm, and when there are > equally plausible, or more plausible, alternatives, it would be quite > unsafe to conclude they were silk on such a weak basis, although I > saw you made no such claim (but more on this in the second part to my > reply). There must be a better people to figure this out. What i can see just from making silk strings is: the look, feel, sound of a silk string can be exactly the same as a gut string. I had a curious anecdote from Peter Rea about some violin players in Australia using what they assumed to be old gut strings (from the 1950s), and what turned out to be silk strings. His wife, a baroque violin player, used those, and it took Peter's interest in silk strings to figure this one out. There is not a chance John Dowland offered to tell apart silk string from gut would be able to do so, unless given the clues to look for. The etymology of Catlines being related to gut, is no less curious, i think. > > However, we do know from late sources (Terzi 1686,and Playford 1664), > that silk bass strings were used, but were they just introduced as a > core for demifilA(c), or already in use as a loaded alternative to gut? > What indication is there that earlier bass strings were silk? The > fact that gut WAS used primarily for wire loading does seem to > indicate that gut was the primary source for mid and bass strings. > It appears that understanding the history of silk in Europe is in its' infancy. The first more comprehensive book "The Silk Industry of Renaissance Venice" appeared in 2001! And this is about AN INDUSTRY. The silk history as such is full of legends and assumptions. Some of the very first arguments i heard six years ago, on bringing up the possibility of early european silk strings were - there was no silk widely available in Europe. Compare this with a simple stub from Wiki today: [2]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_silk . > Gansar: > There is one string type (apart from catline) that might be a good > candidate for an early silk string, and that is Dowland's "Gansar". > According to Charles Besnainou this could be derived from French > "ganse", and if so, I notice that "ganse" is often silk. > Ganse can be a ribbon or braid > [3]http://www.entreedesfournisseurs.fr/images/imgedf/RNB00401.jpg > ganse nf braided cord > but also a woven cord. This is the type of cord you often see around > the edge of cushions. > (However, it can also be a tressed cord). > [4]http://www.deco-ameublement.com/img/upload/ganse-vue.jpg > > It may come from Provencal ganso, which could be related to Greek > gampsos "curved up", or to Latin campsa "curve", from the verb > campsare "tourner" (apparently, it is not related to "gauze"). > One possibility could thus be that the Gansar had a (silk) core > around which a silk ribbon type material was closely wrapped (turned). > Again, from the practical, hands-on understanding: ganzar is clearly related to a cord made from a dry filament material, twisted or braided in one of the countless ways, may be with other materials, including metals, then glued or pressed. Diderot's encyclopedia has a very good description with illustrations of machines used, of making ganza cords and belts, with heating and glueing involved. Silk string of the high or middle range, on the other hand, is cooked to uniformity. It appears smooth, like a polished gut. > However, Charles Besnainou, who suggested this etymology to me, > himself makes a "gansar" string, but in a synthetic more gut-like > material, Influenced in this by African Kora harp strings, which seem > to have a ribbon of gut, or hide wound loosely around a central core. > You can just about make out this structure on the strings of this Kora: > [5]http://www.djembedirect.com/images/products/2300_3L.jpg > Charles string is more tightly wound, as you would expect from a > string that needs to be stopped. Unfortunately, I don't have a photo > of this. > Nevertheless, even if we accept the etymological argument, we see > that Charles concluded that it was the ribbon-like structure that was > the important indication, rather than the material out of which > "ganse" is most often made (silk). Sure thing. May i call your attention to this picture: [6]http://www.globalissuesgroup.com/silkStrings/string4.jpg .This is one of my treble gambas, all silk, with the top strings as you can see smooth, and others made in a ganzar style. Kind of. > > Three solutions for obtaining acceptably thin bass strings, according > to "trade": > 1) The string maker (metal loaded), 2) the lute maker (12c extension) > I rather like the idea that the core of the loaded basses might have > remained stable in diameter (from 6c down) and that the loading > simply increased by steps as you move across to the lower basses, as > this would be similar to the logic of what I called the lute maker's > solution: the 12c lute, which can keep the same thickness of bass > string, but with a step-up of length. However, that is just my liking > for symmetry, and there is no reason why there might not have been > slight increases of string thickness along with the loading process. > > 3) the musician or string seller (demi-filA(c)): > I have begun to see the demifilA(c) option, as the musician's > solution to that same issue. Indeed, the first indication we have of > this process, gives the actual name of the inventor, > [7]http://www.aquilacorde.com/catalogo11.htm > In the Hartlib Papers Project; Ephemerides: "Goretsky hath an > invention of lute strings covered with silver wyer, or strings which > make a most admirable musick. Mr Boyle. [...] String of guts done > about with silver wyer makes a very sweet musick, being of Goretsky's > invention" ( 1659 ). Sorry, i'm not sure that this makes Mr. Goretsky the inventor of demifilA(c). I learned in school that russians invented everything, from the light bulb to the steam engine. I recall reading of the 13th century bow makers using the demi-file technique. It appears to be a natural idea, not requiring a single inventor. > > The fact that we have the inventor's name, makes me think that M. > Goretsky may not have been a string maker. He could have been a > string seller or a musician, if so, he would surely have wrapped a > wire round a pure dry gut string (or a silk core, if we believe > Playford, and these were the same strings, as the similar dates lead > me to believe). This would also explain the rather open publicity > about this string-type. String makers don't seem to be so forthcoming. > (Some genealogical study of the name Goretsky, might come up with an > answer. Goretsky might have lived in England, as reference to this > string type first occurred there). > > I believe a silk core can only be wrapped, and not interwoven, with a > wire. It is only a believe. I have made a number (looks like about 200) demifile silk strings, and most of them by taking a wire along with a silk filaments bunch, and twisting everything together. After cooking, the resulting string has wire imbedded in, allowing for a quite smooth surface. Here is a gold gimp, see how the wire turns round the silk: > [8]http://www.needlenthread.com/Images/Miscellaneous/Goldwork/ > Metal_Threads/Goldwork_Gimp_04.jpg > > I know next to nothing about local Italian history, but the War of > the Mantuan Succession (1628a31) a peripheral part of the Thirty > Years' War, might have interrupted or hindered export of strings from > Pistoia, and following this there was the Italian Plague of 1629a > 1631), so perhaps around the 1640-50 good bass strings became rare, > and string sellers, or musicians, were motivated to find a > replacement; but if so, by 1676, the date of Mace's > MUSICK'S MONUMENT, Pistoy strings seem to have returned, or become > easy to acquire (and Mace does not mention demi-filA(c)). > > However, against the "constant core, but step-up of length or > density" hypothesis, I rather doubt that demi-filA(c) makes it possible > to keep the core at the same diameter, while just increasing the > thickness or the density of the wrapping. Why not? I see in my database demifile c string with 400 filaments and .12 mm wire, and G (forth lower) with the same number of filaments and .2 mm wire, twisted tighter, wires being closer. Both offered proper tension. > > Alternative bass-types: > I do not want to ignore alternatives, such as Damian's High > torsion strings, and Charles Besnainou's toroidal spring twines of > which a little more in a second message including the etymology > question and "chatepelose", ahairy cata" . > > Regards > Anthony > I apologize for the rush. I did not attempt to be dismissive or abrupt. alexander To get on or off this list see list information at [9]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://ion.asu.edu/cool61_wtdsilk/cool61_thumb.htm 2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_silk 3. http://www.entreedesfournisseurs.fr/images/imgedf/RNB00401.jpg 4. http://www.deco-ameublement.com/img/upload/ganse-vue.jpg 5. http://www.djembedirect.com/images/products/2300_3L.jpg 6. http://www.globalissuesgroup.com/silkStrings/string4.jpg 7. http://www.aquilacorde.com/catalogo11.htm 8. http://www.needlenthread.com/Images/Miscellaneous/Goldwork/ 9. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
