I will send this again, with better links
Dear Ed and Chris
I have recently been trying to use the position suggested by
Mace (little finger behind the bridge, see note 2 below) with the
hope of improving my finger technique, similar to this:
http://tinyurl.com/log972
as also shown by marks on certain lutes (photo Mimmo Peruffo):
http://tinyurl.com/q5gx4s
I feel that if I can make a decent sound in that position with my
fairly high tension, but very supple, strings (Venice and Venice
Loaded), then I should be able to play even better in further forward
position (Mouton, Burwell see note 1).
I have found that the only way to achieve "any sound at all" in that
position, is to use the fingers completely flat on and at 90° to the
strings, like an arch.
However, I notice that if Satoh has his thumb pointing along the
strings, his fingers do not seem to be in that arch position, but
rather a bird's nest or swallow nest shape.
http://tinyurl.com/qdk7hs
(Thus although he does have the thumb out position described by
Chris, perhaps he does not quite have the finger position, but Chris
should be the judge of this).
Charles Mouton seems to adopt exactly the arch position as Burwell
describes: "It (the Thumbe) must be before all the rest of the hand,
marching as the Captaine of the Fingers. that hand must be riseing in
the middle in the forme of an Arche" (Is this what you are
describing Chris?).
http://tinyurl.com/mtkjd8
This could, of course, be due to the perspective, but I don't think so.
I am not entirely sure how to interpret this slight difference, but
the "arch" could imply a higher tension than that used by Satoh's
bird's nest, but perhaps a lower tension than I myself use.
I had an interesting discussion on this topic with Mathias Rosel, who
also uses a position similar to that of Satoh, I believe.
I will quote the relevant extracts (Burwell Mace) that Mathias kindly
sent me rather than going to look for them again myself.
Perhaps Mathias might have more to say on the subject.
1. Burwell, Ch. 6, p. 16, last paragraph: "For the right hand, it
must be placed betweene the Rose and the Bridge but nearest [sic!] to
the bridge. your hand must lye vppon the belly of the Lute with the
little finger onely, which must be as it were glued vnto it. and
keepe the Thumbe as much as one can, leaning vpon the Base. It must
be before all the rest of the hand, marching as the Captaine of the
Fingers. that hand must be riseing in the middle in the forme of an
Arche, that you may not smother the Stringes." (Punctuation marks are
mine.)
2. Mace, ch. viii, p. 71 et seq., middle: "lay your Left hand down
upon the table, and your Right Arm over the Lute, so that you may set
your Little Finger down upon the Belly of the Lute, just under the
Bridge, against the Treble or Second String; (...) The 2d thing to be
gain'd is, setting down your Little Finger upon the Belly, as
aforesaid, close under the Bridge, about the first, 2d, 3d, or 4th
strings; for thereabout is its constant station. It steadies the hand
and gives a Certainty to the Grasp ." (Italics oroig., meanung stress)
Regards
Anthony
Le 16 sept. 09 à 06:32, Edward Martin a écrit :
> Hello, Chris!
>
> This is an interesting thread. There actually are a few modern
> players who use the true "thumb out" technique, as you describe. One
> that immediately comes to mind is Toyohiko Satoh. Toyohiko
> demonstrated this at the LSA seminar in Cleveland in 2006. He also
> has 2 recordings using this method, his Weichemberger and LeSage de
> Richee recordings. He used his original 11-course lute, made by
> Laurentius Greiff. He has one more coming out, "Ayumi", baroque lute
> duets with his daughter, Miki Satoh. All 3 CD's are performed using
> the technique as demonstrated in icongraphical sources you mentioned.
>
> In this technique, Toyohiko plays with the fingers and thumb as you
> describe, and it is close to the bridge, with pinky on or behind the
> bridge. According to Toyohiko, the key to making this successful is
> to play with very low tension strings, as higher tensions that most
> of us use make a sound that is too harsh and brittle. Using gut in
> low tension has been very successful for Toyohiko, as he is able to
> get very colorful sounds. And yes, I would describe it as having
> (your words) body, resonance, and dynamic range. According to
> Toyohiko, synthetic strings in low tension using this "authentic"
> technique do not yield good results.
>
> He also wrote an article that was published this winter in the LSA
> "Q". The article was about gut strings, and he described using low
> tension in detail.
>
> I do not play lute using this technique and set-up, as it would be
> very expensive to switch to lower tension strings, but more so, the
> work involved to re-learn a new technique is something that I chose
> not to do at this point. I did lower the tension on both of my
> baroque lutes, but I had difficulty in making it work for me. He
> told me it was difficult to re-learn this means of approach to the
> baroque lute, and this approach would take a long time.
>
> ed
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> At 10:37 PM 9/15/2009, [email protected] wrote:
>> Ned, I've never seen any modern player do real "thumb-out"
>> technique. Most people, even the big guys, do as Jan does in the
>> video: a sort of "half thumb" that is neither in or out, but is more
>> closely related to thumb-under in terms of technique and
>> tone. This, in spite of the fact that virtually the entire body of
>> iconographic evidence from after c.1600 (and much of it before) show
>> lute players with the wrist bent considerably so that the right hand
>> fingers are nearly perpendicular to the strings. Usually this is
>> combined with pinky placement very near - or on or behind - the
>> bridge. I've even seen some pictures of lutenists with their
>> pinkies totally off the top like alla Segovia. The problem, of
>> course, (and the reason no one does it nowadays) is how to produce a
>> tone that has body, resonance and dynamic range with this position.
>> Chris --- On Mon, 9/14/09, [email protected] <[email protected]>
>> wrote: > From: [email protected] <[email protected]> > Subject: [LUTE]
>> Jan Gruter's technique > To: [email protected] > Date: Monday,
>> September 14, 2009, 3:22 PM > I find Youtube a > good resource
>> for looking at the techniques of various > lutenists, and Jan
>> Gruter (no umlaut on > my keyboard) impresses with the > fluency
>> of his playing (for example > Dowland's "A Fancy"). To me
>> it > looks like he uses thumb over technique > and I wonder if
>> his technique > is similar to what those who have > researched
>> this issue think Dowland > may have used later in his career,
>> when > he is said to have adopted a > more thumb over >
>> technique. I have seen this piece played > very well by > one
>> of our members with thumb under > technique, but the thumb over
>> does > seem to make playing the running lines in > the treble -
>> using m-i > instead of p-i - along with a bass line > easier to
>> manage. Of course, > it also comes to my mind, that the two >
>> techniques inevitably result in > a different character; subtle
>> differences > in sound and in rhythmic > articulation and
>> accentuation. And > this leads me to the bigger > question of
>> how fluid - how regular in > articulation - lute pieces such > as
>> this one "should" sound. In > essence, I rather wonder if
>> the > difficulties imposed by thumb under > technique in dealing
>> with trebles > and basses together isn't actually an > advantage
>> in leading the player > to finding the true character of
>> earlier > lute music. ( As wonderfuly as > guitarist today - and
>> earlier - play, I > do find something essential > missing from
>> lute music played on that > instrument, and it has to do > with
>> much more than just sound) > > > > Just pondering the issue of
>> right hand > technique as I work at
>> it. > > > > Ned > > -- > > > To get on or off this list see
>> list information at >
>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
>>
>>
>>
>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>
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>
>
>
> Edward Martin
> 2817 East 2nd Street
> Duluth, Minnesota 55812
> e-mail: [email protected]
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>
>
>
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