Hi Chris, Your note is very comprehensive, and you so neatly put together what the sources say. Thanks for taking the time to put these all together in one note! Many of us have read these comments from the old sources, and we are fortunate to have all this material. One added icongraphical source that I recall is the painting of Falkenhagen, which also demonstrates this "extreme" thumb out technique (I do not immediately have a copy of the image, but we have all seen it).
The one quote you mentioned that jumps out at me again is that from Baron, about alternating the hand position closer to the bridge, then closer to the fingerboard to add colorful sounds. Almost 2 years ago, I went to the national Music museum in Vermillion, South Dakota. I wrote an article for the LSA Q (same Q that contained Toyohiko's article) on my observations. Given the opportunity to do exams of the 2 Edlingers, I discovered another source of evidence of technique used in playing those instruments. It was obvious from scratch and smudge marks that on the smaller lute, there were varied hand positions from close to the bridge, to close to the rose, and even in front of the rose. I took detailed photos of these scratch marks. It is unclear whether these were made by the same musician, but my impression that they were made by more than one player, but this is conjecture, not a conclusion. At least, it does show that right hand positions were varied on this particular instrument, and that these were most likely old (as opposed to new) scratch marks, as the instruments had been in the attic of this castle for many, many years. The evidence from these marks is that wherever the lutenist played in terms of closeness to the bridge or rose, a significant "thumb out" position was utilized. This confirms what you are saying about the inverted "L". So, in addition to the writings and icongraphical sources, there is evidence from this old instrument that this "extreme" thumb-out position was used on this lute. I agree - we are not there yet, in using true historical right hand technique for the baroque lute. Toyohiko is the closest I've seen thus far. I hope others will continue with the quest. Have you explored this with any success? Thanks, ed At 07:19 AM 9/16/2009, [email protected] wrote: >Hi Ed, I was at the seminar in 2006 when Toyohiko talked about >this technique. I believe he is on the right track, but still not >quite all the way there. (I'm speaking in terms of re-creating as >closely as possible the predominant historical technique, not the >quality of hi work.) As Anthony's posting shows, the shape from his >thumb to his index finger still describes an arch rather than an >inverted "L." This is not really found often in the >iconography. Mouton is in the minority but he seems a bit more >extreme than Toyohiko. Furthermore, Toyohiko's wrist is quite flat >and comes in at an angle to the bridge that suggests that perhaps >the position has its origin in thumb-under. Note that even in the >picture of Mouton, it is clear that his wrist is curved and coming >out towards the viewer. For a very quick and easy sampling of >some paintings, check out the pics in the "History of the Lute" >article on David van Edwards' site: >http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/history3.htm and >http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/history4.htm Only the Mouton picture and >the Wright painting of the "Lady with a Theorbo" show the thumb >slightly curled. Her thumb is lazy, but even she has her wrist bent >quite a bit and off the top. THIS is to what Burwell is referring: >"That [right] hand must be riseing in the middle in the forme of an >Arche that you may not smother the Stringes." Speaking of sources, >here are a few more: (translation credits on Wayne's Lute Page.) A >Varietie of Lute Lessons: "First,let your little finger on the belly >of the Lvte, not towards the Rose,but a little lower,stretch out >your Thombe with all the force you can, especially if thy Thombe be >short,so that the other fingers may be carryed in a manner of a >fist, and let the Thombe be held higher then them, this in the >beginning will be hard." (He goes on to say that those with very >short thumbs can do thumb-under despite the fact that it isn't so >elegant because it is easier!) Stobaeus: "The right hand is to be >held close to the bridge, and the little finger firmly placed and >held down. The thumb is to be stretched out strongly, so that it >stands out almost as a limb [so that it stands out one knuckle] to >the other fingers. The fingers are to be pulled cleanly inwards >under the thumb, so that the sound resonates cleanly and strongly. >The thumb is to be struck outwards, not inwards like the people in >the past used to do, and commonly the Dutch and old Germans. For it >has been proved that it is far better to strike the thumb outwards, >it sounds purer, sharper, and brighter, the other sounds quite >rotten and muffled." Baron: "The right or lower hand, as I will call >it, must also be arched and the fingers held curved and apart, >because they are hindered in motion if held close together. The >thumb must always remain outstretched so that is can easily reach >the basses. As to the question of where to strike the strings of >the lute so that the tone will be powerful enough, it will serve to >know that this must be in the center or the space between the rose >and the bridge, for there the contact will have the greatest effect. >The further toward the fingerboard the strings are struck with the >right hand, the softer and weaker will be the tone - it will lose >power, so to speak. However the player can certainly also move back >and forth, once he has the necessary skill, when he wishes to change >[ the tone ] and express something. Those still in the beginning >stages will not be able to do this, for such variation demands >considerable assurance." Another issue to be tackled is how to make >an tone that we find musical with the fingers so curved. This is >exactly what I tell my CG students to avoid because its nasally and >very easy to make a snapping sound. This is doubly true on a >lute. Questions yet to be answered... Chris --- On Wed, 9/16/09, >Edward Martin <[email protected]> wrote: > From: Edward Martin ><[email protected]> > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Jan Gruter's technique > >To: [email protected], [email protected] > Date: Wednesday, >September 16, 2009, 12:32 AM > Hello, Chris! > > This is an >interesting thread. There actually are a > few modern > players who >use the true "thumb out" technique, as you > describe. One > that >immediately comes to mind is Toyohiko Satoh. > Toyohiko > >demonstrated this at the LSA seminar in Cleveland in > 2006. He >also > has 2 recordings using this method, his Weichemberger and > >LeSage de > Richee recordings. He used his original 11-course > >lute, made by > Laurentius Greiff. He has one more coming out, > >"Ayumi", baroque lute > duets with his daughter, Miki Satoh. All 3 >CD's are > performed using > the technique as demonstrated in >icongraphical sources you > mentioned. > > In this technique, >Toyohiko plays with the fingers and > thumb as you > describe, and >it is close to the bridge, with pinky on or > behind the > >bridge. According to Toyohiko, the key to making this > successful >is > to play with very low tension strings, as higher tensions > >that most > of us use make a sound that is too harsh and brittle. > >Using gut in > low tension has been very successful for Toyohiko, as >he is > able to > get very colorful sounds. And yes, I would >describe > it as having > (your words) body, resonance, and dynamic >range. > According to > Toyohiko, synthetic strings in low tension >using this > "authentic" > technique do not yield good results. > > >He also wrote an article that was published this winter in > the >LSA > "Q". The article was about gut strings, and he > described >using low > tension in detail. > > I do not play lute using this >technique and set-up, > as it would be > very expensive to switch to >lower tension strings, but more > so, the > work involved to >re-learn a new technique is something that > I chose > not to do at >this point. I did lower the tension on > both of my > baroque >lutes, but I had difficulty in making it work for > me. He > told >me it was difficult to re-learn this means of approach > to the > >baroque lute, and this approach would take a long time. > > >ed > > > > > > > > At 10:37 PM 9/15/2009, [email protected] > >wrote: > >Ned, I've never seen any modern > player do real >"thumb-out" > >technique. Most people, even the big guys, do as > >Jan does in the > >video: a sort of "half thumb" that is neither in >or > out, but is more > >closely related to thumb-under in terms of >technique > and > >tone. This, in spite of the fact that >virtually > the entire body of > >iconographic evidence from after >c.1600 (and much of it > before) show > >lute players with the wrist >bent considerably so that > the right hand > >fingers are nearly >perpendicular to the strings. > Usually this is > >combined with >pinky placement very near - or on or > behind - the > >bridge. I've >even seen some pictures of lutenists > with their > >pinkies totally >off the top like alla Segovia. > The problem, of > >course, (and >the reason no one does it nowadays) is how > to produce a > >tone >that has body, resonance and dynamic range with > this >position. > >Chris --- On Mon, 9/14/09, [email protected] > ><[email protected]> > > >wrote: > From: [email protected] > ><[email protected]> > > Subject: [LUTE] > >Jan Gruter's technique > >To: [email protected] > > Date: Monday, > >September 14, 2009, >3:22 PM > I find > Youtube a > good resource > >for looking at >the techniques of various > > lutenists, and Jan > >Gruter (no >umlaut on > my keyboard) impresses with > the > fluency > >of his >playing (for example > Dowland's "A > Fancy"). To >me > >it > looks like he uses thumb over > technique > and I >wonder if > >his technique > is similar to what > those who >have > researched > >this issue think Dowland > may have > used >later in his career, > >when > he is said to have adopted >a > > more thumb over > > >technique. I have seen this piece > >played > very well by > one > >of our members with thumb under > >technique, but the > thumb over > >does > seem to make playing >the running > lines in > the treble - > >using m-i > instead of >p-i - along with > a bass line > easier to > >manage. Of >course, > it > also comes to my mind, that the >two > > >techniques inevitably result in > a > different >character; subtle > >differences > in sound and in >rhythmic > > articulation and > >accentuation. And > this leads >me to the > bigger > question of > >how fluid - how regular in > >articulation - lute > pieces such > as > >this one "should" >sound. In > essence, I > rather wonder if > >the > difficulties >imposed by thumb > under > technique in dealing > >with >trebles > and basses together > isn't actually an > >advantage > >in leading the player > to finding the > true >character of > >earlier > lute music. ( As wonderfuly >as > > guitarist today - and > >earlier - play, I > do find >something essential > > missing from > >lute music played on >that > instrument, and it has > to do > with > >much more than >just sound) > > > > > Just pondering the issue of > >right hand > >technique as I work at > >it. > > > > Ned > > > -- > > > To >get on or off this > list see > >list information >at > > >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > > > > > > > >To get on or off this list see list information >at > >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > >N >o virus found in this incoming message. > >Checked by AVG - >www.avg.com > >Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.100/2374 >- > Release Date: > >09/15/09 20:00:00 > > > > Edward Martin > 2817 >East 2nd Street > Duluth, Minnesota 55812 > >e-mail: [email protected] > voice: (218) 728-1202 > >http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=name > >http://www.myspace.com/edslute > > > > > >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.100/2374 - Release Date: >09/15/09 20:00:00 Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [email protected] voice: (218) 728-1202 http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=name http://www.myspace.com/edslute To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
