Hi Ed,
I was at the seminar in 2006 when Toyohiko talked about this technique.
I believe he is on the right track, but still not quite all the way there.
(I'm speaking in terms of re-creating as closely as possible the predominant
historical technique, not the quality of hi work.) As Anthony's posting shows,
the shape from his thumb to his index finger still describes an arch rather
than an inverted "L." This is not really found often in the iconography.
Mouton is in the minority but he seems a bit more extreme than Toyohiko.
Furthermore, Toyohiko's wrist is quite flat and comes in at an angle to the
bridge that suggests that perhaps the position has its origin in thumb-under.
Note that even in the picture of Mouton, it is clear that his wrist is curved
and coming out towards the viewer.
For a very quick and easy sampling of some paintings, check out the pics
in the "History of the Lute" article on David van Edwards' site:
http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/history3.htm
and
http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/history4.htm
Only the Mouton picture and the Wright painting of the "Lady with a Theorbo"
show the thumb slightly curled. Her thumb is lazy, but even she has her wrist
bent quite a bit and off the top. THIS is to what Burwell is referring: "That
[right] hand must be riseing in the middle in the forme of an Arche that you
may not smother the Stringes."
Speaking of sources, here are a few more: (translation credits on Wayne's Lute
Page.)
A Varietie of Lute Lessons: "First,let your little finger on the belly of the
Lvte, not towards the Rose,but a little lower,stretch out your Thombe with all
the force you can, especially if thy Thombe be short,so that the other fingers
may be carryed in a manner of a fist, and let the Thombe be held higher then
them, this in the beginning will be hard." (He goes on to say that those with
very short thumbs can do thumb-under despite the fact that it isn't so elegant
because it is easier!)
Stobaeus: "The right hand is to be held close to the bridge, and the little
finger firmly placed and held down. The thumb is to be stretched out strongly,
so that it stands out almost as a limb [so that it stands out one knuckle] to
the other fingers. The fingers are to be pulled cleanly inwards under the
thumb, so that the sound resonates cleanly and strongly. The thumb is to be
struck outwards, not inwards like the people in the past used to do, and
commonly the Dutch and old Germans. For it has been proved that it is far
better to strike the thumb outwards, it sounds purer, sharper, and brighter,
the other sounds quite rotten and muffled."
Baron: "The right or lower hand, as I will call it, must also be arched and the
fingers held curved and apart, because they are hindered in motion if held
close together. The thumb must always remain outstretched so that is can easily
reach the basses. As to the question of where to strike the strings of the
lute so that the tone will be powerful enough, it will serve to know that this
must be in the center or the space between the rose and the bridge, for there
the contact will have the greatest effect. The further toward the fingerboard
the strings are struck with the right hand, the softer and weaker will be the
tone - it will lose power, so to speak. However the player can certainly also
move back and forth, once he has the necessary skill, when he wishes to change
[ the tone ] and express something. Those still in the beginning stages will
not be able to do this, for such variation demands considerable assurance."
Another issue to be tackled is how to make an tone that we find musical with
the fingers so curved. This is exactly what I tell my CG students to avoid
because its nasally and very easy to make a snapping sound. This is doubly
true on a lute. Questions yet to be answered...
Chris
--- On Wed, 9/16/09, Edward Martin <e...@gamutstrings.com> wrote:
> From: Edward Martin <e...@gamutstrings.com>
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Jan Gruter's technique
> To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu, nedma...@aol.com
> Date: Wednesday, September 16, 2009, 12:32 AM
> Hello, Chris!
>
> This is an interesting thread. There actually are a
> few modern
> players who use the true "thumb out" technique, as you
> describe. One
> that immediately comes to mind is Toyohiko Satoh.
> Toyohiko
> demonstrated this at the LSA seminar in Cleveland in
> 2006. He also
> has 2 recordings using this method, his Weichemberger and
> LeSage de
> Richee recordings. He used his original 11-course
> lute, made by
> Laurentius Greiff. He has one more coming out,
> "Ayumi", baroque lute
> duets with his daughter, Miki Satoh. All 3 CD's are
> performed using
> the technique as demonstrated in icongraphical sources you
> mentioned.
>
> In this technique, Toyohiko plays with the fingers and
> thumb as you
> describe, and it is close to the bridge, with pinky on or
> behind the
> bridge. According to Toyohiko, the key to making this
> successful is
> to play with very low tension strings, as higher tensions
> that most
> of us use make a sound that is too harsh and brittle.
> Using gut in
> low tension has been very successful for Toyohiko, as he is
> able to
> get very colorful sounds. And yes, I would describe
> it as having
> (your words) body, resonance, and dynamic range.
> According to
> Toyohiko, synthetic strings in low tension using this
> "authentic"
> technique do not yield good results.
>
> He also wrote an article that was published this winter in
> the LSA
> "Q". The article was about gut strings, and he
> described using low
> tension in detail.
>
> I do not play lute using this technique and set-up,
> as it would be
> very expensive to switch to lower tension strings, but more
> so, the
> work involved to re-learn a new technique is something that
> I chose
> not to do at this point. I did lower the tension on
> both of my
> baroque lutes, but I had difficulty in making it work for
> me. He
> told me it was difficult to re-learn this means of approach
> to the
> baroque lute, and this approach would take a long time.
>
> ed
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> At 10:37 PM 9/15/2009, chriswi...@yahoo.com
> wrote:
> >Ned, I've never seen any modern
> player do real "thumb-out"
> >technique. Most people, even the big guys, do as
> Jan does in the
> >video: a sort of "half thumb" that is neither in or
> out, but is more
> >closely related to thumb-under in terms of technique
> and
> >tone. This, in spite of the fact that virtually
> the entire body of
> >iconographic evidence from after c.1600 (and much of it
> before) show
> >lute players with the wrist bent considerably so that
> the right hand
> >fingers are nearly perpendicular to the strings.
> Usually this is
> >combined with pinky placement very near - or on or
> behind - the
> >bridge. I've even seen some pictures of lutenists
> with their
> >pinkies totally off the top like alla Segovia.
> The problem, of
> >course, (and the reason no one does it nowadays) is how
> to produce a
> >tone that has body, resonance and dynamic range with
> this position.
> >Chris --- On Mon, 9/14/09, nedma...@aol.com
> <nedma...@aol.com>
>
> >wrote: > From: nedma...@aol.com
> <nedma...@aol.com>
> > Subject: [LUTE]
> >Jan Gruter's technique > To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
> > Date: Monday,
> >September 14, 2009, 3:22 PM > I find
> Youtube a > good resource
> >for looking at the techniques of various >
> lutenists, and Jan
> >Gruter (no umlaut on > my keyboard) impresses with
> the > fluency
> >of his playing (for example > Dowland's "A
> Fancy"). To me
> >it > looks like he uses thumb over
> technique > and I wonder if
> >his technique > is similar to what
> those who have > researched
> >this issue think Dowland > may have
> used later in his career,
> >when > he is said to have adopted a >
> more thumb over >
> >technique. I have seen this piece
> played > very well by > one
> >of our members with thumb under > technique, but the
> thumb over
> >does > seem to make playing the running
> lines in > the treble -
> >using m-i > instead of p-i - along with
> a bass line > easier to
> >manage. Of course, > it
> also comes to my mind, that the two >
> >techniques inevitably result in > a
> different character; subtle
> >differences > in sound and in rhythmic >
> articulation and
> >accentuation. And > this leads me to the
> bigger > question of
> >how fluid - how regular in > articulation - lute
> pieces such > as
> >this one "should" sound. In > essence, I
> rather wonder if
> >the > difficulties imposed by thumb
> under > technique in dealing
> >with trebles > and basses together
> isn't actually an > advantage
> >in leading the player > to finding the
> true character of
> >earlier > lute music. ( As wonderfuly as >
> guitarist today - and
> >earlier - play, I > do find something essential
> > missing from
> >lute music played on that > instrument, and it has
> to do > with
> >much more than just sound) > > > >
> Just pondering the issue of
> >right hand > technique as I work at
> >it. > > > > Ned >
> > -- > > > To get on or off this
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> >
> >
> >
> >
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> >
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>
>
> Edward Martin
> 2817 East 2nd Street
> Duluth, Minnesota 55812
> e-mail: e...@gamutstrings.com
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