I don't have a solution to this particular problem but I was interested in
something which you said about the style of the pieces suggesting a later
date in the earlier discussion. To witt...
"The only thing that bothers me about these attributions to A. M.
Bartolotti is the dates: from style alone I would have tended to date the NB
17.706 MS to the end of of the 17thC and the Goess pieces no earler than
the 1670s (but there are a number of scribes) - but Claude Chauvel makes a
decent case for B being dead by 1682 when his Royal Household establishment
books were passed to Launay (of course he may have simply retired but I'd
have thought in that case we'd have pension payments recorded). "
What Chauvel actually says is that the establishment books record that the
possessions (les biens in French) of one Miquelange, Italien were assigned
to Launay, not that the establishment books were passed to Launay.
Under French law the possessions of foreigners who died in France became the
property of the king to dispose as he saw fit. If this Miquelange, Italien
is Bartolotti, he was presumably dead by January 1682 and his worldly goods
given to Launay. Bartolotti would still have been alive and active in the
1670s but not later.
What is it about the style of the pieces in the Vienna manuscript which
suggests that they are later that say 1680?
As ever
Monica
Could it be that these two A.M.s are not the same; did he have a son also
called A M who played the theorbo? Against such wild speculation is that B
clearly was an adventurous and, indeed, progressive composer so perhaps the
mid 17thC is not unreasonable.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Martyn Hodgson" <[email protected]>
To: "Alexander Batov" <[email protected]>; "Vihuela Dmth"
<[email protected]>; "Lute Dmth" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, March 22, 2010 8:08 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti - copy of relevant page
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Thank you Alexander - an interesting idea. I've scanned my copy of the
first page of this 'Preludio' and attach it herewith.
You'll see that the same number is put against different (tablature) bass
notes - especially see right at the end of the last line.
My own preference is that it indicates a manner of breaking the chords -
but see the 4th and 5th chords from the end of the last line: a three
against a 5 note chord - possible of course if one beaks the chord in an
uneven manner (say the two lowest notes and the top three notes as three
seperate strikes) but........
As a very long stop, I've also wondered if it might indicate duration (eg
number of seconds or pulses per chord) written in by a teacher to indicate
the interpretation of this 'prelude non mesure' ..... but......
Martyn
-- On Sun, 21/3/10, Alexander Batov <[email protected]>
wrote:
From: Alexander Batov <[email protected]>
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti
To:
Cc: "Lutelist" <[email protected]>
Date: Sunday, 21 March, 2010, 17:36
OK, here is an idea. In the so called "Swan" manuscript (St-Petersburg,
the library of the academy of science) some of the lute pieces appear to
be re-adapted to play on baryton, or, indeed, on either. I don't have a
copy of this MS with me at the moment but if the memory serves me right (I
used to see the original a number of times but that was 25 years ago!), a
similar sort of numbers are written beneath the bottom tablature line,
next to the usual bass course letters. What this would mean is that the
person would play from the tablature using the main six strings of the
baryton, with the left hand thumb plucking the corresponding drones at the
back of the neck. And it's those drone strings that would have to be
indicated so as to eliminate guess work.
What you can do is to check if the same numbers (2 or 3, for instance)
mean like indicating the same bass note (judging by what's written on the
tablature stave above) or, perhaps, if they are written next to the same
bass course indications (i.e. as for theorbo).
Alexander
On Sat, 20 Mar 2010 Martyn Hodgson wrote:
On the subject of Bartolotti's theorbo works, has anyone yet come up
with an interpretation of the small numbers under the tablature stave
in the Prelude starting at f. 90v of Wien NB MS 17.706. Altho' this
piece isn't attributed to B., a later Allemande in a very similar
style is. I asked this question a few years ago (in fact 14 Dec 2005)
but there seemed no convincing view of what they meant. I've pasted my
original query below and would be grateful for any insights.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
' What I think are even more problematical, are the numbers (ie a '2'
or a '3') appearing under some chords at the bottom of page 90 (179) in
the theorbo pieces at the back of Wien MS17.706. At first glance one
might say these are simply shorthand for bass course tablature, but the
MS uses the usual strokes (ie a /a //a ///a 4 5 6 7) to indicate
these; is it the number of times the chord is repeated? - but in the
context of the particular chord progressions where it appears this
makes little sense; is it how the chord is to be broken? but the
relevant chords have varying numbers of notes (ranging from three to 5)
and he also uses the established ://: sign for arpeggiation; is it some
LH fingering? - but in the context this again makes no sense.'
Martyn
To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
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<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0" ><tr><td valign="top"
style="font: inherit;"><DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Thank you Alexander - an interesting idea. I've scanned my copy of
the first page of this 'Preludio' and attach it herewith.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>You'll see that the same number is put against different (tablature)
bass notes - especially see right at the end of the last line.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>My own preference is that it indicates a manner of breaking the
chords - but see the 4th and 5th chords from the end of the last line: a
three against a 5 note chord - possible of course if one beaks the chord
in an uneven manner (say the two lowest notes and the top three notes as
three seperate strikes) but........</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>As a very long stop, I've also wondered if it might indicate
duration (eg number of seconds or pulses per chord) written in by a
teacher to indicate the interpretation of this 'prelude non mesure'
..... but......</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Martyn</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>-- On <B>Sun, 21/3/10, Alexander Batov
<I><[email protected]></I></B> wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT:
5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px"><BR>From: Alexander Batov
<[email protected]><BR>Subject: [LUTE] Re:
Bartolotti<BR>To: <BR>Cc: "Lutelist"
<[email protected]><BR>Date: Sunday, 21 March, 2010,
17:36<BR><BR>
<DIV class=plainMail>OK, here is an idea. In the so called "Swan"
manuscript (St-Petersburg, the library of the academy of science) some of
the lute pieces appear to be re-adapted to play on baryton, or, indeed, on
either. I don't have a copy of this MS with me at the moment but if the
memory serves me right (I used to see the original a number of times but
that was 25 years ago!), a similar sort of numbers are written beneath the
bottom tablature line, next to the usual bass course letters. What this
would mean is that the person would play from the tablature using the main
six strings of the baryton, with the left hand thumb plucking the
corresponding drones at the back of the neck. And it's those drone strings
that would have to be indicated so as to eliminate guess work.<BR><BR>What
you can do is to check if the same numbers (2 or 3, for instance) mean
like indicating the same bass note (judging by what's written on the
tablature stave above) or,
perhaps, if they are written next to the same bass course indications
(i.e. as for theorbo).<BR><BR>Alexander<BR><BR>On Sat, 20 Mar 2010 Martyn
Hodgson wrote:<BR><BR>On the subject of Bartolotti's theorbo works, has
anyone yet come up<BR>with an interpretation of the small numbers under
the tablature stave<BR>in the Prelude starting at f. 90v of Wien NB MS
17.706. Altho' this<BR>piece isn't attributed to B., a later Allemande in
a very similar<BR>style is. I asked this question a few years ago (in fact
14 Dec 2005)<BR>but there seemed no convincing view of what they meant.
I've pasted my<BR>original query below and would be grateful for any
insights.<BR><BR><BR>--------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>'
What I think are even more problematical, are the numbers (ie a '2'<BR>or
a '3') appearing under some chords at the bottom of page 90 (179)
in<BR>the theorbo pieces at the back of Wien MS17.706. At first glance
one<BR>might say these are simply shorthand for bass course tablature, but
the<BR>MS uses the usual strokes (ie a /a //a ///a 4 5 6 7) to
indicate<BR>these; is it the number of times the chord is repeated? - but
in the<BR>context of the particular chord progressions where it appears
this<BR>makes little sense; is it how the chord is to be broken? but
the<BR>relevant chords have varying numbers of notes (ranging from three
to 5)<BR>and he also uses the established ://: sign for arpeggiation; is
it some<BR>LH fingering? - but in the context this again makes no
sense.'<BR><BR>Martyn<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>To get on or off this list see
list information at<BR><A
href="http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html";
target=_blank>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html</A><BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></td></tr></table><br>
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