And to think that this whole fascinating thread was just me looking for some interesting preludes to play! So glad to be learning so much about Bartolotti and maybe-Bartolotti while I wait for my music to arrive! > Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 16:32:25 +0000 > To: [email protected] > CC: [email protected] > From: [email protected] > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti - copy of relevant page > > > > Of course - but in any case, ignore the last which was sent by me in > error - I meant to press the save draft key whilst I dug out Hurel but > must have pressed the send (I thought I'd just deleted it)! The > correct version of my reply to your query is, as I type this, winging > its way to you. You'll see it's longer and I've excised the, probably > contentious, comment about usage of the first course. > > What's your view? > > rgds > > Martyn > --- On Mon, 22/3/10, Monica Hall <[email protected]> wrote: > > From: Monica Hall <[email protected]> > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti - copy of relevant page > To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[email protected]> > Cc: "Lutelist" <[email protected]> > Date: Monday, 22 March, 2010, 15:46 > > That's very interesting. Would the fact that Bartolotti was > Italian > make any difference? > As ever > Monica > ----- Original Message ----- > From: [1]Martyn Hodgson > To: [2]Monica Hall > Sent: Monday, March 22, 2010 3:33 PM > Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti - copy of relevant page > Well, > yle of the only theorbo work with the possible name of our man > attached > ('Allemande di Angelo Michieli') seems to me rather more treble and > bass polarised - somewhat closer to deVisee's theorbo works or those > of > late 17th/early 18thC lutenists like Count Losy - than the more > French > lute style (breaking of chords etc) of the third quarter of the > 17thC. > Interestingly, in this Allemande the first course carries much of > the > melody whereas the commoner theorbo pattern is to use inner courses > (ie > 3 and 4) > From: Monica Hall <[1][email protected]> > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti - copy of relevant page > To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[2][email protected]> > Cc: "Lutelist" <[3][email protected]> > Date: Monday, 22 March, 2010, 14:09 > I don't have a solution to this particular problem but I was > interested > in > something which you said about the style of the pieces suggesting a > later > date in the earlier discussion. To witt... > "The only thing that bothers me about these attributions to A. M. > Bartolotti is the dates: from style alone I would have tended to > date > the NB > 17.706 MS to the end of of the 17thC and the Goess pieces no earler > than > the 1670s (but there are a number of scribes) - but Claude Chauvel > makes a > decent case for B being dead by 1682 when his Royal Household > establishment > books were passed to Launay (of course he may have simply retired > but > I'd > have thought in that case we'd have pension payments recorded). " > What Chauvel actually says is that the establishment books record > that > the > possessions (les biens in French) of one Miquelange, Italien were > assigned > to Launay, not that the establishment books were passed to Launay. > Under French law the possessions of foreigners who died in France > became the > property of the king to dispose as he saw fit. If this Miquelange, > Italien > is Bartolotti, he was presumably dead by January 1682 and his > worldly > goods > given to Launay. Bartolotti would still have been alive and active > in > the > 1670s but not later. > What is it about the style of the pieces in the Vienna manuscript > which > suggests that they are later that say 1680? > As ever > Monica > Could it be that these two A.M.s are not the same; did he have a > son > also > called A M who played the theorbo? Against such wild speculation is > that B > clearly was an adventurous and, indeed, progressive composer so > perhaps > the > mid 17thC is not unreasonable. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Martyn Hodgson" <[3][4][email protected]> > To: "Alexander Batov" <[4][5][email protected]>; > "Vihuela > Dmth" > <[5][6][email protected]>; "Lute Dmth" > <[6][7][email protected]> > Sent: Monday, March 22, 2010 8:08 AM > Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti - copy of relevant page > > --0-595003020-1269245312=:61374 > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > > > > > Thank you Alexander - an interesting idea. I've scanned my copy of > the > > first page of this 'Preludio' and attach it herewith. > > > > You'll see that the same number is put against different > (tablature) > bass > > notes - especially see right at the end of the last line. > > > > My own preference is that it indicates a manner of breaking the > chords - > > but see the 4th and 5th chords from the end of the last line: a > three > > against a 5 note chord - possible of course if one beaks the chord > in > an > > uneven manner (say the two lowest notes and the top three notes as > three > > seperate strikes) but........ > > > > As a very long stop, I've also wondered if it might indicate > duration > (eg > > number of seconds or pulses per chord) written in by a teacher to > indicate > > the interpretation of this 'prelude non mesure' ..... but...... > > > > Martyn > > > > > > -- On Sun, 21/3/10, Alexander Batov > <[7][8][email protected]> > > wrote: > > > > > > From: Alexander Batov <[8][9][email protected]> > > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti > > To: > > Cc: "Lutelist" <[9][10][email protected]> > > Date: Sunday, 21 March, 2010, 17:36 > > > > > > OK, here is an idea. In the so called "Swan" manuscript > (St-Petersburg, > > the library of the academy of science) some of the lute pieces > appear > to > > be re-adapted to play on baryton, or, indeed, on either. I don't > have > a > > copy of this MS with me at the moment but if the memory serves me > right (I > > used to see the original a number of times but that was 25 years > ago!), a > > similar sort of numbers are written beneath the bottom tablature > line, > > next to the usual bass course letters. What this would mean is > that > the > > person would play from the tablature using the main six strings of > the > > baryton, with the left hand thumb plucking the corresponding > drones > at the > > back of the neck. And it's those drone strings that would have to > be > > indicated so as to eliminate guess work. > > > > What you can do is to check if the same numbers (2 or 3, for > instance) > > mean like indicating the same bass note (judging by what's written > on > the > > tablature stave above) or, perhaps, if they are written next to > the > same > > bass course indications (i.e. as for theorbo). > > > > Alexander > > > > On Sat, 20 Mar 2010 Martyn Hodgson wrote: > > > > On the subject of Bartolotti's theorbo works, has anyone yet come > up > > with an interpretation of the small numbers under the tablature > stave > > in the Prelude starting at f. 90v of Wien NB MS 17.706. Altho' > this > > piece isn't attributed to B., a later Allemande in a very similar > > style is. I asked this question a few years ago (in fact 14 Dec > 2005) > > but there seemed no convincing view of what they meant. I've > pasted > my > > original query below and would be grateful for any insights. > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > ' What I think are even more problematical, are the numbers (ie a > '2' > > or a '3') appearing under some chords at the bottom of page 90 > (179) > in > > the theorbo pieces at the back of Wien MS17.706. At first glance > one > > might say these are simply shorthand for bass course tablature, > but > the > > MS uses the usual strokes (ie a /a //a ///a 4 5 6 7) to indicate > > these; is it the number of times the chord is repeated? - but in > the > > context of the particular chord progressions where it appears this > > makes little sense; is it how the chord is to be broken? but the > > relevant chords have varying numbers of notes (ranging from three > to > 5) > > and he also uses the established ://: sign for arpeggiation; is it > some > > LH fingering? - but in the context this again makes no sense.' > > > > Martyn > > > > > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > > [10][11]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > > > > > > > --0-595003020-1269245312=:61374 > > Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > > > <table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0" ><tr><td > valign="top" > > style="font: inherit;"><DIV> </DIV> > > <DIV>Thank you Alexander - an interesting idea. I've scanned my > copy > of > > the first page of this 'Preludio' and attach it > herewith.</DIV> > > <DIV> </DIV> > > <DIV>You'll see that the same number is put against different > (tablature) > > bass notes - especially see right at the end of the last > line.</DIV> > > <DIV> </DIV> > > <DIV>My own preference is that it indicates a manner of breaking > the > > chords - but see the 4th and 5th chords from the end of the last > line: a > > three against a 5 note chord - possible of course if one beaks the > chord > > in an uneven manner (say the two lowest notes and the top three > notes > as > > three seperate strikes) but........</DIV> > > <DIV> </DIV> > > <DIV>As a very long stop, I've also wondered if it might > indicate > > duration (eg number of seconds or pulses per chord) written in by > a > > teacher to indicate the interpretation of this 'prelude non > mesure' > > ..... but......</DIV> > > <DIV> </DIV> > > <DIV>Martyn</DIV> > > <DIV> </DIV> > > <DIV> </DIV> > > <DIV>-- On <B>Sun, 21/3/10, Alexander Batov > > <I><[11][12][email protected]></I></B> > wrote:<BR></DIV> > > <BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid; > PADDING-LEFT: > > 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px"><BR>From: Alexander Batov > > <[12][13][email protected]><BR>Subject: > [LUTE] Re: > > Bartolotti<BR>To: <BR>Cc: "Lutelist" > > <[13][14][email protected]><BR>Date: Sunday, 21 March, > 2010, > > 17:36<BR><BR> > > <DIV class=plainMail>OK, here is an idea. In the so called "Swan" > > manuscript (St-Petersburg, the library of the academy of science) > some of > > the lute pieces appear to be re-adapted to play on baryton, or, > indeed, on > > either. I don't have a copy of this MS with me at the moment but > if > the > > memory serves me right (I used to see the original a number of > times > but > > that was 25 years ago!), a similar sort of numbers are written > beneath the > > bottom tablature line, next to the usual bass course letters. What > this > > would mean is that the person would play from the tablature using > the > main > > six strings of the baryton, with the left hand thumb plucking the > > corresponding drones at the back of the neck. And it's those drone > strings > > that would have to be indicated so as to eliminate guess > work.<BR><BR>What > > you can do is to check if the same numbers (2 or 3, for instance) > mean > > like indicating the same bass note (judging by what's written on > the > > tablature stave above) or, > > perhaps, if they are written next to the same bass course > indications > > (i.e. as for theorbo).<BR><BR>Alexander<BR><BR>On Sat, 20 Mar 2010 > Martyn > > Hodgson wrote:<BR><BR>On the subject of Bartolotti's theorbo > works, > has > > anyone yet come up<BR>with an interpretation of the small numbers > under > > the tablature stave<BR>in the Prelude starting at f. 90v of Wien > NB > MS > > 17.706. Altho' this<BR>piece isn't attributed to B., a later > Allemande in > > a very similar<BR>style is. I asked this question a few years ago > (in > fact > > 14 Dec 2005)<BR>but there seemed no convincing view of what they > meant. > > I've pasted my<BR>original query below and would be grateful for > any > > > insights.<BR><BR><BR>----------------------------------------------- > --- > ------------------<BR><BR>' > > What I think are even more problematical, are the numbers (ie a > '2'<BR>or > > a '3') appearing under some chords at the bottom of page 90 (179) > > in<BR>the theorbo pieces at the back of Wien MS17.706. At first > glance > > one<BR>might say these are simply shorthand for bass course > tablature, but > > the<BR>MS uses the usual strokes (ie a /a //a ///a 4 5 6 7) to > > indicate<BR>these; is it the number of times the chord is > repeated? - > but > > in the<BR>context of the particular chord progressions where it > appears > > this<BR>makes little sense; is it how the chord is to be broken? > but > > the<BR>relevant chords have varying numbers of notes (ranging from > three > > to 5)<BR>and he also uses the established ://: sign for > arpeggiation; > is > > it some<BR>LH fingering? - but in the context this again makes no > > sense.'<BR><BR>Martyn<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>To get on or off this > list > see > > list information at<BR><A > > > href="[14][15]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html"; > > > target=_blank>[15][16]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/in > dex.htm > l</A><BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></td></tr></table><br> > > > > > > > > > > --0-595003020-1269245312=:61374-- > > -- > -- > References > 1. mailto:[17][email protected] > 2. mailto:[18][email protected] > 3. > [19]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > .uk > 4. > [20]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=alexander.ba...@vihuel > ademano.com > 5. > [21]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > du > 6. > [22]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > 7. > [23]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=alexander.ba...@vihuel > ademano.com > 8. > [24]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=alexander.ba...@vihuel > ademano.com > 9. > [25]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > 10. [26]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > 11. > [27]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=alexander.ba...@vihuel > ademano.com > 12. > [28]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=alexander.ba...@vihuel > ademano.com > 13. > [29]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > 14. [30]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > 15. [31]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > -- > > References > > 1. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > 2. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > 3. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > 4. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > 5. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=alexander.ba...@vihueladem ano.com > 6. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > 7. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > 8. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=alexander.ba...@vihueladem ano.com > 9. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=alexander.ba...@vihueladem ano.com > 10. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > 11. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > 12. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=alexander.ba...@vihueladem ano.com > 13. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=alexander.ba...@vihueladem ano.com > 14. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > 15. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > 16. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.htm > 17. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > 18. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > 19. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > 20. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=alexander.ba...@vihueladem ano.com > 21. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > 22. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > 23. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=alexander.ba...@vihueladem ano.com > 24. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=alexander.ba...@vihueladem ano.com > 25. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > 26. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > 27. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=alexander.ba...@vihueladem ano.com > 28. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=alexander.ba...@vihueladem ano.com > 29. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > 30. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > 31. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > __________________________________________________________________
Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your inbox. [1]Sign up now. -- References 1. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID27925::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:032010_2
