In a message dated 02/04/2010 07:15:21 GMT Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
I can't see any evidence for wound strings on the violin for the
early baroque, but if there is, I would be interested to see it.
I should have been more specific about dates: the earliest evidence for
wound strings on the violin is from 1664, when Playford advertises them
for sale "for the basses of violins, viols and lutes" - although he may
be referring either to "bass violins" or "bass strings of violins". The
earliest iconographic evidence (that I've seen) is from the 1680s, with
the series of portraits of musicians at the Medici court by Gabbiani.
We see a silver 4th on violin and bass violin but not viola.
I
don't see any point in using equal tension strings if some are
wound,
as there will be a big difference in the string crossing.
The players were obviously very concerned about the change in sound
during string crossing, which is why they used gut.
Actually I suspect the reason for the ultimate demise of equal tension
is the introduction of wound strings, as they do create just this
problem. But we are in the realms of speculation here. Surely when
wound strings were first introduced it would have been as a simple
replacement for the (sometimes problematic) lowest string? I imagine
this may well have led to questioning of the string profile for the
reasons you suggest.
One answer in France was the use of the demi-filee D string on the
violin.
It's important to note the difference between a historical wound string
and the kind typically produced today, even by specialist
manufacturers: the evidence is for a thicker gut core in the early
years (roughly as thick as the D string for a G in 1710), progressively
thinning (1790s - A used as core for G - 1850s - E used as core). A
wound string with a very thick core is closer to the gut sound and
feel.
A slight, graded
difference in tension I'm sure would have been fine and is supported
both by iconography and string hole diameters, I can't see
maintaining the string tension, for example, for a six course
instrument, and even many of the violins (only four strings) do not
show excessively large diameters on the the fourth course.
Which period are you talking about for violins?
Therefore,
one would have to assume a different stringing system for members of
the viol and lute family, which seems problematic based on the
sources.
I agree this would seem problematic.
From the evidence that I see, it is more likely that there was
slight drop off in tension approaching the bass, and that no wound
strings were used untill much later.
Do you mean a slight drop off even with gut strings? I'm not sure
there's any evidence for this. I agree that it may have been one of the
solutions for dealing with the wound 4th issues - but the hard evidence
for unequal tension (Riccati) doesn't come until 1767.
With loaded strings, the tension could have been closer.
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding the post, but "all gut" being described
as "limited application" would seem to be exactly the opposite of
the
historical record, unless there is some missing evidence.
I should have been clearer: it has limited application for the
repertoire of professional baroque orchestras, which only occasionally
venture pre-1660. The Gabrieli Consort, where I play, is exceptional in
specialising in earlier repertoire, but even so spends most of its time
playing 18C music! We did however play the Fairy Queen a few years ago
with all gut equal tension, with a large string band in the Albert
Hall, and it was a thrilling experience.
The way I would phrase it is: "for the baroque violin, all gut,
nearly universal application."
See above - evidence for wound Gs on violin from at least the 1680s. By
the 1730s Majer is writing "The violin G is usually overspun with
silver"; there's also a portrait of Corelli in Dublin in the 1690s
clearly showing a silver G.
Of course there is also evidence for the persistence of gut Gs until
the mid 18C - but I think it's fair to say this (1680-1750) was a time
of transition and experiment.
Having said that I usually prefer a gut G even for early 18C
repertoire, but this is a personal preference!
Obviously, at some point wound strings started to appear, which were
wound differently than today. However that does not mean that
players
stopped using all gut strings
I agree. (see above)
Notable examples of "all gut"
Mersenne 1635
Talbot, 1690s
though he meantions wound strings for lowest course of bass violin and
bass viol in a footnote
Stradivarius
What's the evidence for this? I haven't seen it.
Tartini, 1734
Again, evidence about what tension he uses, but how do we know he used
gut? I'd be very interested!
Leopold Mozart, 1756
well, not strictly - he is clear about equal tension, and doesn't
mention wound strings. That could mean he didn't use them or that wound
was a given - we shouldn't assume either!
Gunzelheimer, 1855
Yes- this is the rogue one I've been searching for. But I can't find
it! And it really is a rogue.
Hey, good enough for Stradivarius, Tartini and Mozart--no slouches
there.
If this is indeed true...
There are however, some woundies mentioned from 1730-1750 in
Germany.
However, mentions by Majer (c1732) really have to take a back seat I
think to references made by professional players.
Fair enough, if indeed the players do say this - can you give me
quotations?
Everyone should read Majer for continuo, however.
"wound" strings in the late baroque and early classical period would
have been mainly of the "open" type, with spaced windings--these
sound very different than the strings used today with closed
windings.
How do you know this? there's a clear distinction made between fully
wound strings and "demi-filee" or "filata alla vitalba" (this latter
term mentioned by Stradivari) - open wound strings. The open wound
strings had very specific applications - violin 3rd, viola da gamba
4th. I don't know of any evidence that they were used for violin 4th,
eg, although that doesn't necessarily rule it out.
I would say as a broad generalization, for most of the baroque, all
gut was the rule, and there were a few exceptions in Germany at the
end of the period.
It's very rare for me to be arguing for the use of more metal (!!) but
I think this may be a case of the pendulum swinging a little too far
the other way. We have to be careful not to discredit our argument by
saying things that might too easily be contested...
There was clearly some experimenting in Italy in the 1680s (Gabbiani)
even if only at wealthy courts, and in France at least around 1710
(Brossard ms violin treatise), and as you say in Germany. I think this
is natural and understandable, with a new technology - and equally it's
natural that there was some resistance, and various problems were
encountered.
Although I broadly agree, I think it would be fairer to say this was a
time of transition.
Brossard (1712) mentions it in his writing as an option, but there
is
no real concordance for that, so we can assume, I think, the strings
existed but were not widespread.
Not exactly at that time, though there is a beautiful French painting
frmo about 1750, clearly showing a silver G and a flecked silver D -
presumably demifilee. My suggestion -given that in fact there is no
other clear evidence about French violin stringing in early 18C - is
that Brossard's alternative became common in France (not necessarily
universal). The demifilee D seems to have faded away in the classica
lperiod, possibly as violinists used higher positions on lower strings
- chaging position is one way to wreck a demifilee string!
Also, for a pitch of 392, it is of course a somewhat different
story,
in France and Rome, and we know that they used also a pitch as low
as
370, so then you are talking about a different note, in France.
There must also have been a few people experimenting with any new
string that came out, just as we do today.
On my "to do" list--early photographs of famous violin players from
the 19th century!
Respectfully,
dt
Thanks - and any details about that beautiful cello painting you
pointed us to?
Respectfully,
Oliver Webber
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