Of course, I'd meant "...a better ability to "cut" above accompanying instruments" with mandolino.
Best, Eugene ----- Original Message ----- From: EUGENE BRAIG IV <[email protected]> Date: Sunday, May 30, 2010 8:45 am Subject: [LUTE] Re: baroque mandolins etc--- tensions and kgs? To: Lute List <[email protected]> > Of course it is (common knowledge, that is, at > least relatively so). > But with modern classical guitars sometimes strung > to 9 kg or so, the > single string functions at as high or higher a > tension than the paired > course. Also, fingerpicking steel-string > guitars is not uncommon, and > even lightly strung, they tend to be even higher tension. > Regarding the act of plucking itself, the feeling > of stiffness imparted > by short scale length doesn't hinder after a little > practice. If > anything, it increases speed and accuracy because > the strings are more > consistently close to where they started. > It's a similar effect to > plucking very, very near the bridge, as is now > common on baroque > instruments. Because of scale length alone, > with my pinky near to the > bridge of a mandolino, my m, i, and p are much > nearer to the relative > center of the vibrating string length than they > would be on a baroque > lute. I don't play d-minor lute, but I don't > mind noodling on other > folks' on occasion. Plucking near the bridge > of a d-minor lute feels > only slightly different to me. I suppose that > may be only because I'm > so accustomed to plucking mandolino now. > Plucking a mandolino using the finest functional > strings that are > readily available isn't that much different with > minimal practice. Not > many yet, but as mentioned earlier, there are a > fair number of > recordings that demonstrate so nicely: Tyler, > O'Dette, Wedemeier, etc. > I'm excited to hear another such recording is > pending with the > scholarly Davide Rebuffa doing the plucking. > I think it's possible that the high tessitura of > such things may in > part be why chamber music and concerti make up such > a higher relative > proportion of extant baroque mandolino repertoire, > where that for lute > favors solos. Not only does the expanded bass > lend itself to a more > satisfying self accompaniment on lute, but all the > previously discussed > factors trend to add up to better projection, a > better ability to "cut" > above accompanying instruments. Also, I am > aware of absolutely no > evidence one way or the other, but I suspect nail > use may have been > more common to mandolino players than d-minor lute > players. ...And by the early classical and the era > of published mandolin > methods, the burgeoning popularity of the > Neapolitan type, the music of > Hoffmann, etc. it DOES appear that plectrum play on > 4th-tuned > mandolini was becoming common. > Really, before losing oneself in bewilderment, one > should pick up a 5- > or 6-course mandolino and pluck a few notes with > the fingers. It's not > so bad. > Best, > Eugene > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Martyn Hodgson <[email protected]> > Date: Sunday, May 30, 2010 4:09 am > Subject: [LUTE] Re: baroque mandolins etc--- > tensions and kgs? > To: Lute List <[email protected]>, EUGENE > BRAIG IV > <[email protected]> > > > > Dear Eugene, > > > > There is really is no > difficulty here. The heart of > > the matter is that > > tension needs to be related to > string length, so > > that with similar > > instruments, bigger ones (and > used eg Dowland as > > said)) higher tension > > than their smaller counterparts > - see the earlier > > communication about > > this. So for a small string > length, like on the > > mandolino which is > > around half the string length > of a mean lute, a > > tension of as low as a > > half is suggested for similar > 'feel' ie 3Kg/2 = > > 1.5Kg (which is why I > > suggested a trial at around > this level). The > > converse is also the case > > with large theorbos needing > higher tensions than a > > mean lute. > > > > The modern 'classical' guitar > is single strung > > (like some theorbos) and > > can be played with a higher > level of tension (as > > Stuart found out when > > he tried single strings). > > > > I thought all this was common > knowledge..... > > > regards > > > > Martyn > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Sun, 30/5/10, EUGENE > BRAIG IV > > <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > From: EUGENE BRAIG > IV <[email protected]> > > Subject: [LUTE] Re: > baroque mandolins > > etc--- tensions and kgs? > > To: "Lute List" > <[email protected]> > > Date: Sunday, 30 May, 2010, 5:26 > > > > I don't know > why tension should > > have much to do with punteado vs. > > > plectrum. I also certainly > > would not consider approx. 3.0-4.0 kg > > per > > string (as I > use on my mandolino) > > "high" tension. Guitars are often > > much higher, > modern classical or > > even 19th c. It's not even far > > from > > what some > players use on > > lutes. On his string calculator page, > > Arto cites > 3.0 kg as his standard > > and 4.0 as preferred on archlute. > > Eugene > > ----- > Original Message ----- > > From: Stuart Walsh > > > <[1][email protected]> Date: > > Friday, May 28, 2010 6:13 pm > > Subject: > [LUTE] Re: baroque > > mandolins etc--- tensions and kgs? > > To: David van > Ooijen > <[2][email protected]> > > Cc: Lute List <[3][email protected]> > > > David van > Ooijen wrote: > > > > On Fri, > May 28, 2010 at 9:17 > > PM, Stuart Walsh > > > > <[4][email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > >> Is there > a simple > > explanation, somewhere, of string tensions > > > and what > 3kg or > > > >> 7 kg etc > means and what is > > the significance of it. I've never > > > > understood>> what it's all about. > > > >> > > > > > > > > I wrote > this some years ago, > > so I could understand what it was > > > all about: > > > > > > > > - > Calculating String Tensions > > > > > Explaining the why and how of > > calculating strings for lutes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [5]http://home.planet.nl/~ooije006/david/writings/stringtension_f.htm > > > > > > Thank you > for this. I > > read it as carefully as I could! > > > > > > To be > honest, I got as far as > > "the frequency of a string > > > > [frequency=pitch?] is directly > > related [=is?] the square root of > > > its > > > tension." > and a sort of filter > > kicks in. > > > A bit like > when a plumber comes > > to fix something (at great > > > expense) and > > > explains > all the minute details > > when I just want to know whether > > > the > > > toilet will > flush or not. > > > > > > But what > you say confirms > > (if I've understood you) what I > > > thought about > > > high > tension stringing, playing > > with nails (plectrum) etc and > > > that maybe > > > old > instruments were more > > lightly constructed with strings > > > at lower > > > tension, > needing a gentler mode > > of playing. > > > > > > And so this > is the > > problem with tiny instruments like the > > > mandolino > > > where the > strings are > > inevitably (?) going to be high tension - > > > > how can > > > they be > fingerstyle/punteado > instruments rather than plectrum > > > instruments > (even if some of > > the music for them looks - > > > > superficially? - > > > as if it > can't be played with > > a plectrum) > > > > > > > > > Stuart > > > > > > (not a > plectrum player) > > -- > > To get on or off this list see > list information at > > > [6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > -- > > > > References > > > > 1. > > > http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 2. > > http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > > 3. > > > http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 4. > http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > > 5. > > > http://home.planet.nl/~ooije006/david/writings/stringtension_f.htm 6. > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > -- > To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
