Dear Eugene,
Very interesting. I really wasn't saying anyone was 'wrong' for employing tensions of c. 4Kg on such a relatively small instrument (ie compared to a lute) but that there is another perspective which could be usefully explored since some people seem to find finger playing a problem at these tensions and string lengths. You're certainly right to highlight the main issue as being the apparent 'stiffness' under the fingers so that, for example, a tension of 3Kg on my large continuo callichon (fingered string length 95cm) feels like playing very soft elastic bands whereas on my son's small (30cm) ukelele the same tension feels closer to the fabled 'iron bars'. In short, the tension related to each instrument's size. I know very little about modern steel strung guitars but certainly wouldn't wish to base the stringing of my baroque guitars on a modern 12 string 'Dreadnought'! Let me give an example from another plucked string family: the cittern. Peter Forrester, I think the most respected cittern authority, suggests the diameter of an iron first course e' of a cittern of string length 43cm at 0.23mm: this gives a tension per string of 2.65Kg. ( the full paper originally published in Lute News and reprinted by Andrew Hartig per Peter Forrester, February, 2006.). Incidentally, scaling down to 32cm to maintain similar stiffness gives us 2.0Kg. This cittern is, of course, wire strung and played with a plectrum(quill) which might suggest even lower tensions for gut and finger style playing.......... Again, all this isn't being dogmatic, but simply asking the questions, initially in response to queries about the nice sound made by Timmermans, but then wondering what the early evidence is for string tensions on the mandolino. regards Martyn To repeat --- On Sun, 30/5/10, EUGENE BRAIG IV <[email protected]> wrote: From: EUGENE BRAIG IV <[email protected]> Subject: [LUTE] Re: baroque mandolins etc--- tensions and kgs? To: "Lute List" <[email protected]> Date: Sunday, 30 May, 2010, 13:43 Of course it is (common knowledge, that is, at least relatively so). But with modern classical guitars sometimes strung to 9 kg or so, the single string functions at as high or higher a tension than the paired course. Also, fingerpicking steel-string guitars is not uncommon, and even lightly strung, they tend to be even higher tension. Regarding the act of plucking itself, the feeling of stiffness imparted by short scale length doesn't hinder after a little practice. If anything, it increases speed and accuracy because the strings are more consistently close to where they started. It's a similar effect to plucking very, very near the bridge, as is now common on baroque instruments. Because of scale length alone, with my pinky near to the bridge of a mandolino, my m, i, and p are much nearer to the relative center of the vibrating string length than they would be on a baroque lute. I don't play d-minor lute, but I don't mind noodling on other folks' on occasion. Plucking near the bridge of a d-minor lute feels only slightly different to me. I suppose that may be only because I'm so accustomed to plucking mandolino now. Plucking a mandolino using the finest functional strings that are readily available isn't that much different with minimal practice. Not many yet, but as mentioned earlier, there are a fair number of recordings that demonstrate so nicely: Tyler, O'Dette, Wedemeier, etc. I'm excited to hear another such recording is pending with the scholarly Davide Rebuffa doing the plucking. I think it's possible that the high tessitura of such things may in part be why chamber music and concerti make up such a higher relative proportion of extant baroque mandolino repertoire, where that for lute favors solos. Not only does the expanded bass lend itself to a more satisfying self accompaniment on lute, but all the previously discussed factors trend to add up to better projection, a better ability to "cut" above accompanying instruments. Also, I am aware of absolutely no evidence one way or the other, but I suspect nail use may have been more common to mandolino players than d-minor lute players. ...And by the early classical and the era of published mandolin methods, the burgeoning popularity of the Neapolitan type, the music of Hoffmann, etc. it DOES appear that plectrum play on 4th-tuned mandolini was becoming common. Really, before losing oneself in bewilderment, one should pick up a 5- or 6-course mandolino and pluck a few notes with the fingers. It's not so bad. Best, Eugene ----- Original Message ----- From: Martyn Hodgson <[1][email protected]> Date: Sunday, May 30, 2010 4:09 am Subject: [LUTE] Re: baroque mandolins etc--- tensions and kgs? To: Lute List <[2][email protected]>, EUGENE BRAIG IV <[3][email protected]> > > Dear Eugene, > > There is really is no difficulty here. The heart of > the matter is that > tension needs to be related to string length, so > that with similar > instruments, bigger ones (and used eg Dowland as > said)) higher tension > than their smaller counterparts - see the earlier > communication about > this. So for a small string length, like on the > mandolino which is > around half the string length of a mean lute, a > tension of as low as a > half is suggested for similar 'feel' ie 3Kg/2 = > 1.5Kg (which is why I > suggested a trial at around this level). The > converse is also the case > with large theorbos needing higher tensions than a > mean lute. > > The modern 'classical' guitar is single strung > (like some theorbos) and > can be played with a higher level of tension (as > Stuart found out when > he tried single strings). > > I thought all this was common knowledge..... > > regards > > Martyn > > > > > > --- On Sun, 30/5/10, EUGENE BRAIG IV > <[4][email protected]> wrote: > > From: EUGENE BRAIG IV <[5][email protected]> > Subject: [LUTE] Re: baroque mandolins > etc--- tensions and kgs? > To: "Lute List" <[6][email protected]> > Date: Sunday, 30 May, 2010, 5:26 > > I don't know why tension should > have much to do with punteado vs. > plectrum. I also certainly > would not consider approx. 3.0-4.0 kg > per > string (as I use on my mandolino) > "high" tension. Guitars are often > much higher, modern classical or > even 19th c. It's not even far > from > what some players use on > lutes. On his string calculator page, > Arto cites 3.0 kg as his standard > and 4.0 as preferred on archlute. > Eugene > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Stuart Walsh > <[1][7][email protected]> Date: > Friday, May 28, 2010 6:13 pm > Subject: [LUTE] Re: baroque > mandolins etc--- tensions and kgs? > To: David van Ooijen > <[2][8][email protected]> > Cc: Lute List <[3][9][email protected]> > > David van Ooijen wrote: > > > On Fri, May 28, 2010 at 9:17 > PM, Stuart Walsh > > <[4][10][email protected]> wrote: > > > > > >> Is there a simple > explanation, somewhere, of string tensions > > and what 3kg or > > >> 7 kg etc means and what is > the significance of it. I've never > > understood>> what it's all about. > > >> > > > > > > I wrote this some years ago, > so I could understand what it was > > all about: > > > > > > - Calculating String Tensions > > > Explaining the why and how of > calculating strings for lutes. > > > > > > > > [5][11]http://home.planet.nl/~ooije006/david/writings/stringtension_ f.htm > > > > Thank you for this. I > read it as carefully as I could! > > > > To be honest, I got as far as > "the frequency of a string > > [frequency=pitch?] is directly > related [=is?] the square root of > > its > > tension." and a sort of filter > kicks in. > > A bit like when a plumber comes > to fix something (at great > > expense) and > > explains all the minute details > when I just want to know whether > > the > > toilet will flush or not. > > > > But what you say confirms > (if I've understood you) what I > > thought about > > high tension stringing, playing > with nails (plectrum) etc and > > that maybe > > old instruments were more > lightly constructed with strings > > at lower > > tension, needing a gentler mode > of playing. > > > > And so this is the > problem with tiny instruments like the > > mandolino > > where the strings are > inevitably (?) going to be high tension - > > how can > > they be fingerstyle/punteado > instruments rather than plectrum > > instruments (even if some of > the music for them looks - > > superficially? - > > as if it can't be played with > a plectrum) > > > > > > Stuart > > > > (not a plectrum player) > -- > To get on or off this list see list information at > [6][12]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > -- > > References > > 1. > [13]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 2. [14]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=davidvanooi...@gmai l.com > 3. > [15]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 4. [16]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > 5. > [17]http://home.planet.nl/~ooije006/david/writings/stringtension_f.htm 6. [18]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > -- -- References 1. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 2. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 3. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 4. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 5. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 6. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 7. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 8. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 9. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 10. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 11. http://home.planet.nl/~ooije006/david/writings/stringtension_f.htm 12. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 13. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 14. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 15. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 16. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 17. http://home.planet.nl/~ooije006/david/writings/stringtension_f.htm 18. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
