Indeed, but the late renaissance mandore was distinct from Italian mandolino. I know of one very early mandolino built for a single high string, but all the other instruments and iconography of which I'm aware imply a high course of paired strings for mandolino. In the 19th c., single-strung mandolini Milanese and Lombardi began to appear, but they are comfortably post baroque. Best, Eugene ----- Original Message ----- From: Stuart Walsh <[email protected]> Date: Monday, May 31, 2010 12:34 pm Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: baroque mandolins etc---not forgetting the French mandore To: Martyn Hodgson <[email protected]> Cc: Lute List <[email protected]>, EUGENE BRAIG IV <[email protected]> > Martyn Hodgson wrote: > > Very good point about uniformity of trebles. > Did mandolinos never have > > single trebles? > > > > > The French mandore from the late 16th century has single > strings. > According to Tyler, the lost, earliest, tutor from Leroy (1585) > is for > a four-string instrument (source: Trichet, writing years later). > Praetorius, Chancy and Mersenne clearly depict a four-string > instrument > and some surviving examples are illustrated in Baines. > > So here is a tiny instrument, just like the later mandolino, but > tuned > differently and seemingly a successful, popular instrument for > quite a > long time. And with single strings. > > Stuart > > > > > > > > The splitting horn was certainly a known > tool but as to the uniformity > > of the resultant gut I've no knowledge - > perhaps it was even better > > though? - We know that at the beginning of > the 16thC (whole) gut > > strings were naturally slightly conical > (mentioned in Capirola f 3v as > > the thicker end and the thinner end) - > perhaps this splitting horn was > > an early form of industrial tool to ensure > uniformity?.....> > > rgds > > > > Martyn > > --- On Mon, 31/5/10, EUGENE BRAIG IV > <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > From: EUGENE BRAIG IV > <[email protected]>> Subject: > [LUTE] Re: baroque mandolins etc--- tensions and kgs? > > To: "Lute List" > <[email protected]>> Date: > Monday, 31 May, 2010, 15:29 > > > > I found the document to > which I'd referred. Not as useful as I'd > > hoped. There are a > pair of receipts issued to the Pieta by two > > different suppliers in > Venice that were discovered by Micky White > > and > > made available in > 2002. One was issued by Selles and spans > > March-February 1745, and > the other by Montagnana spanning > > June-February > > 1760. There isn't > enough detail to be useful in determining string > > gauges. A typical > entry will read something like "un > > maso cantini di mandolino" > followed by the sale price. > > I'm just a little > skeptical about the usefulness of splitting or > > grinding strings in this > context, but would love to hear of somebody > > experimenting with > such. My experience with "polished" gut (that > > fragments the linear > integrity of gut fibers) is that it is > > extremely > > short-lived at fine > gauges. Gut, as an organic fiber, tends to be a > > little inconsistent in > ways that can sometimes make for questionable > > intonation along its > length. Of course, this is often cited as one > > reason why lutes and > guitars carried single chanterelles. The body > > of > > evidence shows that > mandolini typically strung the highest course in > > pairs. I would think > splitting a fine gut string would exacerbate > > issues of inconsistency. > > Best, > > Eugene > > ----- Original Message ---- > - > > From: Martyn Hodgson > <[1][email protected]>> Date: Monday, May 31, 2010 2:51 am > > Subject: [LUTE] Re: > baroque mandolins etc--- tensions and kgs? > > To: Lute List > <[2][email protected]>, EUGENE BRAIG IV > > <[3][email protected]>, > "davide.rebuffa"> > <[4][email protected]>> > > > > > > > Thank > you for this. > > > > > > My > original enquiry was not so much about > > > conducting a survey of what > > > > tensions modern manolino preffered but rather to > > > cooment on Timmerman's > > > > recotrding and ask what's the historical evdidence > > > for string tensions > > > on > these instruments. As far as I'm aware, the only > > > evidence mentioned > > > has > been a catalogue of strings for the Ospedale in > > > Vivaldi's time - do > > > we > know anything about these?. > > > > > > I'm > also interested that you use lower tensions on > > > larger instruments > > > (even > as large as 95cm), and would be grateful for > > > your evidence to > > > > support this practice. > > > > > > regards > > > > > > Martyn > > > > > > --- On > Sun, 30/5/10, davide.rebuffa > > > > <[5][email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > From: davide.rebuffa > > > > <[6][email protected]>> > Subject: [LUTE] Re: baroque mandolins etc--- tensions and kgs? > > > > To: "Lute List" > > > > <[7][email protected]>, "EUGENE BRAIG IV" > > > > <[8][email protected]> > > > > Date: Sunday, 30 May, 2010, 15:42 > > > > > > Dear Martyn > > > I > agree with Eugene about string tension and right > > > hand position. > > > ("with > my pinky near to the bridge of a > > > mandolino, my m, i, and > p are > > > much > nearer to the relative center of the > > > vibrating string length than > > > they > would be on a baroque lute") > > > I play > with quite high tension and so do my > > > students and does Mauro > > > > Squillante who plays the same copy of a 6 ocurse > > > mandolino made for us > > > by an > italian maker. > > > I use > 0.40 ( gut or nylgut) for the g top string at > > > 415 hz on a short > > > string > lenght mandolini , 31.8 cm (originals and > > > copies from north > > > Italy) > > > the > same 0.40 or 0.38 on original > > > mandolini with longer string > > > lenght > made in central Italy where the standard > > > corista was lower ( top > > > string > in f , 390 hz ) - a 5 course mandolino by > > > Smorsone (1721 ) > > > > diapason cm 33.8 cm > > > > and 4 course by Franchi, diapason 34.9 cm > > > (1727 which has single top > > > string). > > > Theese > instruments with longer string lenght, > > > narrow and long body > > > > project wery well even with low tensions but I > > > woudn't say the same > > > about > the mandolini made in Milano at the end of > > > the XVIIIth century > > > with > larger body which need higher tension, I > > > suspect this is because > > > they > were already conceived to be played with the > > > plectrum which gives > > > a > softer sound. > > > I > might be wrong but my feelings and my experience > > > are that I need > > > higher > tension on small instruments an quite lowe > > > on big instruments > > > like > calichon or theorbo and baroque guitars, but > > > not that low on the > > > > baroque lute. > > > regards, > > > Davide > > > ----- > Original Message ----- From: "EUGENE BRAIG IV" > > > > <[1][9][email protected]>> > > To: "Lute List" <[2][10][email protected]> > > > Sent: > Sunday, May 30, 2010 2:43 PM > > > > Subject: [LUTE] Re: baroque mandolins etc--- > > > tensions and kgs? > > > > > Of course it is (common knowledge, > > > that is, at least relatively > > > so). > > > > > But with modern classical guitars > > > sometimes strung to 9 kg > or so, > > > the > > > > > single string functions at as high or > > > higher a tension than the > > > paired > > > > > course. Also, fingerpicking > > > steel-string guitars is > not uncommon, > > > and > > > > > even lightly strung, they tend to be > > > even higher tension. > > > > > Regarding the act of plucking itself, > > > the feeling of stiffness > > > imparted > > > > > by short scale length doesn't hinder > > > after a little > practice. If > > > > > anything, it increases speed and > > > accuracy because the > strings are > > > more > > > > > consistently close to where they > > > started. It's a > similar effect to > > > > > plucking very, very near the bridge, > > > as is now common on baroque > > > > > instruments. Because of scale > > > length alone, with my > pinky near to > > > the > > > > > bridge of a mandolino, my m, i, and p > > > are much nearer to the > > > relative > > > > > center of the vibrating string length > > > than they would be on a > > > baroque > > > > > lute. I don't play d-minor > > > lute, but I don't mind > noodling on > > > other > > > > > folks' on occasion. Plucking > > > near the bridge of a d- > minor lute > > > feels > > > > > only slightly different to me. > > > I suppose that may be > only because > > > I'm > > > > > so accustomed to plucking mandolino now. > > > > > Plucking a mandolino using the finest > > > functional strings that are > > > > > readily available isn't that much > > > different with minimal > practice.> > > Not > > > > > many yet, but as mentioned earlier, > > > there are a fair number of > > > > > recordings that demonstrate so > > > nicely: Tyler, O'Dette, > Wedemeier,> > > etc. > > > > > I'm excited to hear another such > > > recording is pending > with the > > > > > scholarly Davide Rebuffa doing the > > > plucking. > > I think it's possible that > > > the high tessitura of > such things may in > > > > > part be why chamber music and > > > concerti make up such a higher > > > relative > > > > > proportion of extant baroque > > > mandolino repertoire, > where that for > > > lute > > > > > favors solos. Not only does the > > > expanded bass lend > itself to a > > > more > > > > > satisfying self accompaniment on > > > lute, but all the previously > > > discussed > > > > > factors trend to add up to better > > > projection, a better > ability to > > > "cut" > > > > > above accompanying instruments. > > > Also, I am aware of > absolutely no > > > > > evidence one way or the other, but I > > > suspect nail use may > have been > > > > > more common to mandolino players than > > > d-minor lute players. > > > > > ...And by the early classical and the > > > era of published mandolin > > > > > methods, the burgeoning popularity of > > > the Neapolitan type, the > > > music of > > > > > Hoffmann, etc. it DOES appear that > > > plectrum play on 4th-tuned > > > > > mandolini was becoming common. > > > > > Really, before losing oneself in > > > bewilderment, one should > pick up a > > > 5- > > > > > or 6-course mandolino and pluck a few > > > notes with the > fingers. It's > > > not > > > > > so bad. > > > > > Best, > > > > > Eugene > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: Martyn Hodgson > > > > <[3][11][email protected]> > > > > Date: Sunday, May 30, > 2010 4:09 am > > > > > Subject: [LUTE] Re: baroque mandolins > > > etc--- tensions and kgs? > > > > > To: Lute List > > > > <[4][12][email protected]>, EUGENE BRAIG IV > > > > > <[5][13][email protected]> > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Eugene, > > > > > > > > > > > > There is really > > > is no difficulty here. > The heart of > > > > > > the matter is that > > > > > > tension needs to > > > be related to string > length, so > > > > > > that with similar > > > > > > instruments, > > > bigger ones (and used eg > Dowland as > > > > > > said)) higher tension > > > > > > than their > > > smaller counterparts - > see the earlier > > > > > > communication about > > > > > > this. So for a > > > small string length, > like on the > > > > > > mandolino which is > > > > > > around half the > > > string length of a mean > lute, a > > > > > > tension of as low as a > > > > > > half is suggested > > > for similar 'feel' ie > 3Kg/2 = > > > > > > 1.5Kg (which is why I > > > > > > suggested a trial > > > at around this level). The > > > > > > converse is also the case > > > > > > with large > > > theorbos needing higher > tensions than a > > > > > > mean lute. > > > > > > > > > > > > The modern > > > 'classical' guitar is > single strung > > > > > > (like some theorbos) and > > > > > > can be played > > > with a higher level of > tension (as > > > > > > Stuart found out when > > > > > > he tried single > > > strings). > > > > > > > > > I thought all > > > this was common knowledge..... > > > > > > > > > > > > regards > > > > > > > > > > > > Martyn > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Sun, > > > 30/5/10, EUGENE BRAIG IV > > > > > > <[6][14][email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > From: > > > EUGENE BRAIG IV > <[7][15][email protected]>> > > > > > > > Subject: [LUTE] Re: > baroque mandolins > > > > > > etc--- tensions and kgs? > > > > > > To: > > > "Lute List" > <[8][16][email protected]>> > > > Date: > > > Sunday, 30 May, 2010, 5:26 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't know why tension > should> > > > > have much to do with punteado vs. > > > > > > > > > plectrum. I also > certainly> > > > > would not consider approx. > 3.0-4.0 kg > > > > > > per > > > > > > > > > string (as I use on my > mandolino)> > > > > "high" tension. > Guitars are often > > > > > > > > > much higher, modern > classical or > > > > > > even 19th c. It's not even far > > > > > > from > > > > > > > > > what some players use on > > > > > > lutes. On his string > > > calculator page, > > > > > > > > > Arto cites 3.0 kg as his > standard> > > > > and 4.0 as preferred on archlute. > > > > > > > > > Eugene > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > - > > > > > > > > > From: Stuart Walsh > > > > > > > > > > <[1][9][17][email protected]> Date: > > > > > > Friday, May 28, 2010 6:13 pm > > > > > > > > > Subject: [LUTE] Re: baroque > > > > > > mandolins etc--- tensions and kgs? > > > > > > > > > To: David van Ooijen > > > > > > <[2][10][18][email protected]> > > > > > > Cc: Lute List > > > > <[3][11][19][email protected]> > > > > > > > David van Ooijen wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, May 28, 2010 > at 9:17 > > > > > > PM, Stuart Walsh > > > > > > > > > > > <[4][12][20][email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Is there a simple > > > > > > explanation, somewhere, of string > > > tensions > > > > > > > and what 3kg or > > > > > > > > > > >> 7 kg etc means and > what is > > > > > > the significance of it. I've never > > > > > > > > > > understood>> what it's > all about. > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I wrote this some > years ago, > > > > > > so I could understand what it was > > > > > > > > > > all about: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Calculating String > Tensions> > > > > > > > > > Explaining the why > and how of > > > > > > calculating strings for lutes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [5][13][21]http://home.planet.nl/~ooije006/david/writings/stringtension > _f.htm > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you for > this. I > > > > > > read it as carefully as I could! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To be honest, I got as > far as > > > > > > "the frequency of a string > > > > > > > > > > [frequency=pitch?] is > directly> > > > > related [=is?] the square > root of > > > > > > > > > > its > > > > > > > > > > tension." and a sort > of filter > > > > > > kicks in. > > > > > > > > > > A bit like when a > plumber comes > > > > > > to fix something (at great > > > > > > > > > > expense) and > > > > > > > > > > explains all the > minute details > > > > > > when I just want to know whether > > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > toilet will flush or not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But what you say confirms > > > > > > (if I've understood you) what I > > > > > > > > > > thought about > > > > > > > > > > high tension > stringing, playing > > > > > > with nails (plectrum) etc and > > > > > > > > > > that maybe > > > > > > > > > > old instruments were more > > > > > > lightly constructed with strings > > > > > > > > > > at lower > > > > > > > > > > tension, needing a > gentler mode > > > > > > of playing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And so this is the > > > > > > problem with tiny instruments like the > > > > > > > > > > mandolino > > > > > > > > > > where the strings are > > > > > > inevitably (?) going to be high > > > tension - > > > > > > > > > > how can > > > > > > > > > > they be fingerstyle/punteado > > > > > > instruments rather than plectrum > > > > > > > > > > instruments (even if > some of > > > > > > the music for them looks - > > > > > > > > > > superficially? - > > > > > > > > > > as if it can't be > played with > > > > > > a plectrum) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Stuart > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > (not a plectrum player) > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > To get on or off > > > this list see list > information at > > > > > > > > > > [6][14][22]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > References > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [15][23]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworl> d.com > > > 2. > > > > > > > > > > [16][24]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=davidvanooi...@gma > il.com > > > > > > 3. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [17][25]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]> th.edu > > > 4. > > > > > > > > > [18][26]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworl> d.com > > > > > 5. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [19][27]http://home.planet.nl/~ooije006/david/writings/stringtension> _f.htm > > > 6. > > > [20][28]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > References > > > > > > 1. > > > > > > [29]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 2. > > > [30]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]> du > > > 3. > > > > > > [31]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo> .co.uk > > 4. > > > [32]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]> > 5. > > > > > > [33]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 6. > > > [34]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]> > 7. > > > > > > [35]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 8. > > > [36]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]> du > > > 9. > > > > > > [37]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]> 10. > > > [38]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=davidvanooi...@gmai> l.com > > > 11. > > > > > > [39]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]> 12. > > > [40]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]> > 13. > > > > > > [41]http://home.planet.nl/~ooije006/david/writings/stringtension_f.htm> 14. [42]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > 15. > > > > > > [43]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]> 16. > > > [44]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=davidvanooi...@gmai> l.com > > > 17. > > > > > > [45]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]> 18. > > > [46]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]> > 19. > > > > > > [47]http://home.planet.nl/~ooije006/david/writings/stringtension_f.htm> 20. [48]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > -- > > To get on or off this list see list > information at > > [49]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute- > admin/index.html> > > -- > > > > References > > > > 1. > http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]> 2. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > > 3. > http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]> 4. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=davide.rebu...@fastwebnet. it > > 5. > http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=davide.rebu...@fastwebnet. it> 6. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=davide.rebu...@fastwebnet. it > > 7. > http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]> 8. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > > 9. > http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]> 10. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > > 11. > http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]> 12. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > > 13. > http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]> 14. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > > 15. > http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]> 16. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > > 17. > http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]> 18. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > > 19. > http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]> 20. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > > 21. > http://home.planet.nl/~ooije006/david/writings/stringtension> 22. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > 23. > http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]> 24. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=davidvanooi...@gma > > 25. > http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]> 26. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > > 27. > http://home.planet.nl/~ooije006/david/writings/stringtension_f.htm> 28. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > 29. > http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]> 30. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > > 31. > http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]> 32. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > > 33. > http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]> 34. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > > 35. > http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]> 36. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > > 37. > http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]> 38. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > > 39. > http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]> 40. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > > 41. > http://home.planet.nl/~ooije006/david/writings/stringtension_f.htm> 42. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > 43. > http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]> 44. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > > 45. > http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]> 46. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > > 47. > http://home.planet.nl/~ooije006/david/writings/stringtension_f.htm> 48. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > 49. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin > > --
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