Thank you for this.
Regarding what you say you meant, this is what you wrote "Unfortunately with Vivaldi, the fact that it may be difficult to play or go "off the range" is absolutely not relevant, as is the case in his other concertos. Remember this is the guy who writes the violin parts in bass clef sometimes, which you would need a reverse capo for. Not to mention the recorder concertos, and so on." Accordingly, I'd still be grateful for actual evidence for your claims (in this case that Vivaldi didn't expect any particular form of 'leuto') rather than simple unsubstantiated assertions and your personal preferences. A violone is not always the same as a violoncello in Italy in this period and is certainly not always a double bass instrument as you seem to believe MH --- On Wed, 5/1/11, David Tayler <[email protected]> wrote: From: David Tayler <[email protected]> Subject: [LUTE] Re: RV93 - which instrument? To: "lute-cs.dartmouth.edu" <[email protected]> Date: Wednesday, 5 January, 2011, 10:10 Just to be clear, I didn't say "Vivaldi generally did not take into account individual instrumental requirements in his compositions and that accordingly most of his compositions were played on any instrument to hand" I mean, why would I say that? Did I say that and space it out? Holy cow. After all, the celli concerti are very idiomatic, for example. Side note: Vivaldi was primarily an Opera composer--he claimed over 90--but most work is on the concertos. Many things yet to be dicovered in Vivaldi. I just don't happen to agree with some Vivaldi scholarship--some of it is very good, of course. Simple. Square peg reasoning for the concertos in the matter of range and playability. I think I understand the terms and the clefs. I just don't agree that they must mean something else depending on the theory of the piece. I don't think claiming that I don't understand the clefs is a valid argument; just tell me what they mean. As for Violone, don't agree. To many instruments and paintings survive. Too many varied references. Besides, why would Vivaldi use the term cello and violone in the same piece? (Good trivia question) As for the banjo, well, hmmm. How is that different from modern strings? dt What is the evidence for your assertion that Vivaldi generally did not take into account individual instrumental requirements in his compositions and that accordingly most of his compositions were played on any instrument to hand? Of course you can play RV93 on the banjo if that takes your fancy but that wasn't the question originally posed, which was: 'what is the instrument most likely to have played the leuto part in RV93' (ie not 'what instruments can possibly play the notes of this part?'). You also misunderstand the contemporary use of different clefs and of various flutes and of the nomenclature 'violone' which by did not generally mean a double bass instrument..... MH --- On Wed, 5/1/11, David Tayler <[1][email protected]> wrote: From: David Tayler <[2][email protected]> Subject: [LUTE] Re: RV93 - which instrument? To: "lute-cs.dartmouth.edu" <[3][email protected]> Date: Wednesday, 5 January, 2011, 0:08 You can always try to assign a particular type of instrument in an ideal tuning, but the term "lute", in any language form, is a generic term for a "family-context" of instruments. Unfortunately with Vivaldi, the fact that it may be difficult to play or go "off the range" is absolutely not relevant, as is the case in his other concertos. Remember this is the guy who writes the violin parts in bass clef sometimes, which you would need a reverse capo for. Not to mention the recorder concertos, and so on. Even octave doublings, alas, do not give us a real clue, but the mandolin fits the range nicely, and so do other lutes. Some people play it C major. As for mutes, looking at Juditha Triumphans, we see, as elsewhere in the canon, that V. calls for lead mutes for his mandolin aria. These lead mutes are perfect for example the slow mvt, and if covered with leather are safe to use. Some scholars venture that mutes were not used on the cello in the baroque period, but that of course is not true; however, they may have been less common, especially if using all gut strings for the cello. So you can play it on any lute, and if you wish to be in the same octave, you can play it on a smaller lute, and if you want it in meantone, the mandolin tuning, with the high G ( or even E, but the G seems better to me), works perfect with no tastini which are a chore on the mandolin. MT works because you have open B and E in the middle courses, and if you tune your archlute 4th and 5th courses down a half step that works very nicely as well, also for the modulating bit. Remember also that V did not write violone parts for 99 percent of his works, and in the extremely rare place where the violone pops up, it may be a cello or "church bass." And, lastly, one of the many, many meanings for "concerto" is "quartet," so it is fine to play it as a quartet of two violins, lute and BC. dt To get on or off this list see list information at [1][4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 2. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 3. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
