MH you should feel free to suggest and speculate but until you have a
cold hard fact you should continue to label your speculations as
such. For the researchers AJN is referring to, their research has
reached an end for now on there being only one St luc. enough!!
__________________________________________________________________
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of Martyn Hodgson
Sent: Sat 4/2/2011 3:45 AM
To: A. J. Ness
Cc: Lutelist
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Saint-Luc again. Was: Foscarini Experience
Dear Arthur,
Many thanks for this: I'm acquainted with Vendrix's work (and his
credentials!) and was therefore rather dismayed he seemed so
absolutely
convinced that the very elderly S Luc (born 1616) was the same
person
as journeyed across Europe to play in a concert and composed the
works
in the Prague and Vienna MSs in an early 18th century style. Others,
as
well as I, have questioned this and suggested a son or some other
relation (or even non-relation) may be another lutenist S Luc. As
said
earlier, my current speculation is the elder S Luc's oldest son
(also
named Jacques).
You say that Vendrix states that 'there is no evidence that S Luc's
sons were musicians'. It is certainly the case that he says this
but
he then goes on to imply by a dodgy logic that this means they were
definitely not musicians. But, of course, a lack of evidence works
both
ways: there is no evidence that they were not musicians - simply
that
we haven't uncovered any as yet. This, essentially, is my reason for
suggesting that more research is required and, certainly, that one
should refrain from mere assertion which, as you know, can so easily
become generally accepted; especially if from the pen of a scholar
like
M Vendrix.
I take your point that 90+ isn't at death's door these days and I'm
sorry Arthur, that you're upset about this - but, you may agree,
90+
was pretty exceptional for 1700. However more than this, I suggest
we
need to be very careful in assuming the elder S Luc was the S Luc of
the two MSs: it might be the case that he was, but until then I
suggest
we need to keep the matter open.
Finally, I don't know about 'harm' being done, but if assumptions
are
tested and have to be justified that seems to me to be a very good
thing.
regards
Martyn
--- On Fri, 1/4/11, A. J. Ness <arthurjn...@verizon.net> wrote:
From: A. J. Ness <arthurjn...@verizon.net>
Subject: [LUTE] Saint-Luc again. Was: Foscarini Experience
To: "Martyn Hodgson" <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>, "Monica Hall"
<mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
Cc: "Lutelist" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Date: Friday, 1 April, 2011, 15:49
Dear Martyn,
The problem is not that the level of Saint-Luc research is poor.
It's
rather
high, and dates back to the 19th century. And it is simply not true
that
the principal writers are generalists.
Philippe Vendrix, a lutenist, is one of France's leading
musicologists.
He is dean of the Centre d'Etudes Superiores de la Renaissance,
He is Director of Research for the Centre National de la Recherche
Scientifique,
And he is editor-in-chief of Acta Musicologica (the journal of the
International Musicological Society).
His partner in Saint-Luc research is Manuel Couveur, Professor of
Musicology
at the Free University of Brussels.
Between them, they really have all bases covered, French and
Flemish,
so to
speak (to use an American baseball metaphor). They are positioned
not
only
by expertise, but also geographically to examine archival records
related to
Saint-Luc.
Brussels, may I remind you, was Jacques de Saint-Luc's musical home
town.
He was not French. He was trained at court with ITALIAN and SPANISH
musicians, under the director of chamber music, Giuseppe Zamponi.
Jacques
performed villancicos at court when he was 13 (was he a
Wunderkind?),
and
the
court owned vihuelas. His teacher may have been court
lutenist/theorbist
Philippe
Vermeulen, who as a youngster was sent by the court to Italy to
"perfect"
his abilities on theorbo with Piccinini.
The "cantabile" of his style that Baron remarked
about, was there from the Italian influences of his training. He
didn't
write 200 pieces all in Vienna. That he wrote so much music is
accounted
for by his attaining the age of at least 96.
I think I resent more than anything your suggestion that he was too
old
and
feebled to write music and travel, and using that as an excuse to
attribute
his works to his sons. And he was not in his 90s when he traveled to
Berlin.
He was 84. The sensation of his playing may have been due to his
age.
Was Verdi feeble-minded when he wrote Otello and Falstaff? What
about
Stravinsky?
One would never have expected him to end his career writing serial
music.
THERE IS NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER THAT SAINT-LUC'S SONS WERE
MUSICIANS.
And you can bet Couveur and Vendrix looked high and low to find
them.
The
Saint-Lucs were NOT a dynastic family of musicians.
Enough for now. The harm is done, and Couveur and Vendrix have
already
begun
to set the record straight. Our responsibility is to realize what
happened
as a result of those fictional original New Grove and 1963 MGG
articles.
The recent New Grove Saint-Luc article has been completely
re-written.
I
haven't seen the latest MGG. Arthur.
==============================================
To: "A. J. Ness" <[1]arthurjn...@verizon.net>; "Monica Hall"
<[2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
Cc: "Lutelist" <[3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2011 4:59 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience
>
> Well - as you both already well know - the current level of
scholarship
> is so poor that the elder and younger Saint Jacques generally
appear as
> one.
>
> But the real issue is that the real passion and merit of this
music
is
> lost by such a generalist approach.
>
> ythfo
>
> Martyn
>
>
>
>
>
> --- On Thu, 31/3/11, Monica Hall <[4]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
wrote:
>
> From: Monica Hall <[5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience
> To: "A. J. Ness" <[6]arthurjn...@verizon.net>
> Cc: "Lutelist" <[7]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> Date: Thursday, 31 March, 2011, 21:01
>
> Don't even mention Grove - as far as the baroque guitar is
concerned it
> is full of errors.<sigh, sigh. sigh>
> Monica
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "A. J. Ness"
> <[1][8]arthurjn...@verizon.net>
> To: "Monica Hall" <[2][9]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
> Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2011 8:56 PM
> Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience
> > That's what makes me angry about the Jacques de Saint-Luc
article
in
> New Grove (first ed. and MGG 1963). Musica Rara has puibo. all
the
> Suittes dessus and bassus, andattributres them one by one to
three
> different composers named St.Luc.<sigh>
> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Monica Hall"
> <[3][10]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
> > To: "Monica Hall" <[4][11]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
> > Cc: "Lutelist" <[5][12]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> > Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2011 3:23 PM
> > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience
> >
> >
> >> Yes - the music is fun and I really enjoyed hearing the solo
pieces
> too - but liner notes are just nonsense. They have just made
it
all
> up as a kind of concept to hang the recording on.
> >>
> >> Really it's irresponsible - because what they have said is
now
being
> repeated as if it were true.
> >>
> >> What a world we live in.....
> >>
> >> Monica
> >>
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Monica Hall"
> <[6][13]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
> >> To: "Eugene C. Braig IV" <[7][14]brai...@osu.edu>
> >> Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2011 8:20 PM
> >> Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience
> >>
> >>
> >>>
> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eugene C. Braig IV"
> <[8][15]brai...@osu.edu>
> >>> To: "'Lutelist'" <[9][16]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> >>> Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2011 8:12 PM
> >>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> I quite like that CD (especially the guitar solos that they
opted
> to record
> >>>> as solos), but the liner notes do strike me as a bit
"whimsical."
> >>>>
> >>>> Eugene
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>> From: [10][17]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
> [mailto:[11][18]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
> >>>>> Behalf Of Monica Hall
> >>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2011 3:10 PM
> >>>>> To: Jean-Marie Poirier
> >>>>> Cc: Lutelist
> >>>>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Wow - that was quick work. That must be the picture.
But
is
> there any
> >>>>> evidence that the lutenist is Foscarini?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> To be honest - when I first read the liner notes to the CD
I
> thought they
> >>>>> were a work of fiction. But perhaps I am missing
something.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Monica
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>> From: "Jean-Marie Poirier" <[12][19]jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr>
> >>>>> To: "Monica Hall" <[13][20]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
> >>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2011 8:05 PM
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [LUTE] Foscarini Experience
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> > Monica,
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> > Would that be the picture you are looking for ?
> >>>>> > If yes, it's just across the street, VAM ;-) !
> >>>>> > Here's a link with details :
> >>>>> >
>
[14][21][1]http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O18973/painting-the-ommeg
anck-in-
> >>>>> brussels-on/
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> > All the best,
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> > Jean-Marie
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> > =================================
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> > == En reponse au message du 31-03-2011, 20:54:29 ==
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> >> I came across this CD by the group Foscarini
Experience
> with the
> >>>>> title
> >>>>> >> "Bon voyage" some time ago. In the liner notes it
> mentions an
> >>>>> >> illustration which features Foscarini on a wagon
playing
the
> lute
> >>>>> >> together with a girl with a triangle and a violone
player
> which
> >>>>> >> apparently dates from 1615 and is part of an
illustration of
> a >> feast
> >>>>> >> held for the Archduchess Isabella Clara Eugenia, the
wife of
> the
> >>>>> >> Archduke Albert.
> >>>>> >>
> >>>>> >>
> >>>>> >>
> >>>>> >> Does anyone know anything about this illustration and
> whether the
> >>>>> >> lutenist is clearly identified as Foscarini. I have
done a
> bit >> of
> >>>>> >> surfing the net but haven't found any trace of it.
> >>>>> >>
> >>>>> >>
> >>>>> >>
> >>>>> >> Monica
> >>>>> >>
> >>>>> >>
> >>>>> >>
> >>>>> >>
> >>>>> >>
> >>>>> >> --
> >>>>> >>
> >>>>> >>
> >>>>> >>To get on or off this list see list information at
> >>>>>
>>[15][22][2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> > ========================================
> >>>>> >
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >
>
> --
>
> References
>
> 1.
[23][3]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=arthurjness@verizon
.ne
t
> 2.
[24][4]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.
uk
> 3.
[25][5]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.
uk
> 4.
[26][6]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.
uk
> 5.
[27][7]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.e
du
> 6.
[28][8]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.
uk
> 7.
[29][9]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=brai...@osu.edu
> 8.
[30][10]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=brai...@osu.edu
> 9.
[31][11]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.
edu
> 10.
>
[32][12]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute-arc@cs.dartmo
uth.
edu
> 11.
>
[33][13]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute-arc@cs.dartmo
uth.
edu
> 12.
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.fr
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.uk
> 14.
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-in-
> 15.
[37][17]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
--
References
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t
2.
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[49]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute-arc@cs.dartmouth.
edu
33.
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--
References
1. http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O18973/painting-the-ommeg
2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
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17. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
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54. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
