Dear Greet,
That is really an exhaustive demonstration of the amount, depth and type of
research that has been undertaken in regard to musicians in Belgium. I
found it particulaly interest that that there were so many musicians named
van den Linden at court. One named Laurent.<!> I also spotted elsewhere a
Vermeulen who was a dancer, but I'm not certain it was Jean. So with
Philippe that makes two
lutenists. But again a dynastic family, this time mainly dancers, with a
lutenist
or two tossed in for good measure. This is what I mean by dynastic families
of musicians. Had Jacques de Saint-Luc been a member of such a family,
there would surely be records someplace of his father's and his son's
activities as musicians.
And you make my point about Italian style, with still another lutenist sent
to Italy to study with members of the Piccinini dynasty. I've never heard
any of Zamponi's chamber music, but understand it is very expressive in an
Italianate manner, as I would describe Saint-Luc's.. There is a short
excerpt from his opera ("in the Venetian style") on YouTube. Saint-Luc's
music is so good, I can't imagine him not being a master of the Italian
style he
inherited while in Brussels.
That Saint-Luc was writing in the "New" Austrian style when he was in
Brussels. Surely he didn't write 200 pieces in the last years of his life,
after experiencing the "New Austrian
Style." And in addition to those manuscripts copied for Prince Lobkowitz,
there is at least one other from his Flemish days that is lost.
Incidentally all of the Lobkowitz lute manuscripts formerly in the
University Library in Prague have been returned to the family and are housed
at a castle in Nelahozeves. The current heir, William Lobkowitz was
born in the U.S. He graduated from Harvard College and has a residence on
Beacon Hill here in Boston. I've seen pictures of his from his Harvard
days. He looked just like a sharp Harvard preppie.<g> Can you imagine
what it must have felt like him to awaken one morning to discover that he
was the owner of a dozen crumbling castles in Czechoslovakia,? And it was
his responsibilty to care for them and their treasures. (He got a few
Bruegels to care for, also.)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Greet Schamp" <greet.sch...@gmail.com>
To: "'A. J. Ness'" <arthurjn...@verizon.net>; "'Martyn Hodgson'"
<hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>; "'Monica Hall'" <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 3:14 PM
Subject: RE: [LUTE] Saint-Luc again. Was: Foscarini Experience
Dear all,
Another lutenist Lorenzo Van der Linden at the same Brussels court was also
sent to Picinini
This article by Godelieve Spiessens, was published in the Yearbook 2010 of
our Belgian Lute Academy, it also mentions Jean Vermeulen at the beginning
notes.
Greetings from the country of Jacques de St Luc
Greet
-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Namens A.
J. Ness
Verzonden: vrijdag 1 april 2011 16:50
Aan: Martyn Hodgson; Monica Hall
CC: Lutelist
Onderwerp: [LUTE] Saint-Luc again. Was: Foscarini Experience
Dear Martyn,
The problem is not that the level of Saint-Luc research is poor. It's rather
high, and dates back to the 19th century. And it is simply not true that
the principal writers are generalists.
Philippe Vendrix, a lutenist, is one of France's leading musicologists.
He is dean of the Centre d'Études Supériores de la Renaissance,
He is Director of Research for the Centre National de la Recherche
Scientifique,
And he is editor-in-chief of Acta Musicologica (the journal of the
International Musicological Society).
His partner in Saint-Luc research is Manuel Couveur, Professor of Musicology
at the Free University of Brussels.
Between them, they really have all bases covered, French and Flemish, so to
speak (to use an American baseball metaphor). They are positioned not only
by expertise, but also geographically to examine archival records related to
Saint-Luc.
Brussels, may I remind you, was Jacques de Saint-Luc's musical home town.
He was not French. He was trained at court with ITALIAN and SPANISH
musicians, under the director of chamber music, Giuseppe Zamponi. Jacques
performed villancicos at court when he was 13 (was he a Wunderkind?), and
the
court owned vihuelas. His teacher may have been court lutenist/theorbist
Philippe
Vermeulen, who as a youngster was sent by the court to Italy to "perfect"
his abilities on theorbo with Piccinini.
The "cantabile" of his style that Baron remarked
about, was there from the Italian influences of his training. He didn't
write 200 pieces all in Vienna. That he wrote so much music is accounted
for by his attaining the age of at least 96.
I think I resent more than anything your suggestion that he was too old and
feebled to write music and travel, and using that as an excuse to attribute
his works to his sons. And he was not in his 90s when he traveled to Berlin.
He was 84. The sensation of his playing may have been due to his age.
Was Verdi feeble-minded when he wrote Otello and Falstaff? What about
Stravinsky?
One would never have expected him to end his career writing serial music.
THERE IS NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER THAT SAINT-LUC'S SONS WERE MUSICIANS.
And you can bet Couveur and Vendrix looked high and low to find them. The
Saint-Lucs were NOT a dynastic family of musicians.
Enough for now. The harm is done, and Couveur and Vendrix have already begun
to set the record straight. Our responsibility is to realize what happened
as a result of those fictional original New Grove and 1963 MGG articles.
The recent New Grove Saint-Luc article has been completely re-written. I
haven't seen the latest MGG. Arthur.
==============================================
To: "A. J. Ness" <arthurjn...@verizon.net>; "Monica Hall"
<mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
Cc: "Lutelist" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2011 4:59 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience
Well - as you both already well know - the current level of scholarship
is so poor that the elder and younger Saint Jacques generally appear as
one.
But the real issue is that the real passion and merit of this music is
lost by such a generalist approach.
ythfo
Martyn
--- On Thu, 31/3/11, Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
From: Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience
To: "A. J. Ness" <arthurjn...@verizon.net>
Cc: "Lutelist" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Date: Thursday, 31 March, 2011, 21:01
Don't even mention Grove - as far as the baroque guitar is concerned it
is full of errors.<sigh, sigh. sigh>
Monica
----- Original Message ----- From: "A. J. Ness"
<[1]arthurjn...@verizon.net>
To: "Monica Hall" <[2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2011 8:56 PM
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience
> That's what makes me angry about the Jacques de Saint-Luc article in
New Grove (first ed. and MGG 1963). Musica Rara has puibo. all the
Suittes dessus and bassus, andattributres them one by one to three
different composers named St.Luc.<sigh>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Monica Hall"
<[3]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
> To: "Monica Hall" <[4]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
> Cc: "Lutelist" <[5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2011 3:23 PM
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience
>
>
>> Yes - the music is fun and I really enjoyed hearing the solo pieces
too - but liner notes are just nonsense. They have just made it all
up as a kind of concept to hang the recording on.
>>
>> Really it's irresponsible - because what they have said is now being
repeated as if it were true.
>>
>> What a world we live in.....
>>
>> Monica
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Monica Hall"
<[6]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
>> To: "Eugene C. Braig IV" <[7]brai...@osu.edu>
>> Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2011 8:20 PM
>> Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience
>>
>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eugene C. Braig IV"
<[8]brai...@osu.edu>
>>> To: "'Lutelist'" <[9]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
>>> Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2011 8:12 PM
>>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience
>>>
>>>
>>>> I quite like that CD (especially the guitar solos that they opted
to record
>>>> as solos), but the liner notes do strike me as a bit "whimsical."
>>>>
>>>> Eugene
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: [10]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
[mailto:[11]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
>>>>> Behalf Of Monica Hall
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2011 3:10 PM
>>>>> To: Jean-Marie Poirier
>>>>> Cc: Lutelist
>>>>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience
>>>>>
>>>>> Wow - that was quick work. That must be the picture. But is
there any
>>>>> evidence that the lutenist is Foscarini?
>>>>>
>>>>> To be honest - when I first read the liner notes to the CD I
thought they
>>>>> were a work of fiction. But perhaps I am missing something.
>>>>>
>>>>> Monica
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Jean-Marie Poirier" <[12]jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr>
>>>>> To: "Monica Hall" <[13]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2011 8:05 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [LUTE] Foscarini Experience
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> > Monica,
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Would that be the picture you are looking for ?
>>>>> > If yes, it's just across the street, VAM ;-) !
>>>>> > Here's a link with details :
>>>>> >
[14]http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O18973/painting-the-ommeganck-in-
>>>>> brussels-on/
>>>>> >
>>>>> > All the best,
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Jean-Marie
>>>>> >
>>>>> > =================================
>>>>> >
>>>>> > == En reponse au message du 31-03-2011, 20:54:29 ==
>>>>> >
>>>>> >> I came across this CD by the group Foscarini Experience
with the
>>>>> title
>>>>> >> "Bon voyage" some time ago. In the liner notes it
mentions an
>>>>> >> illustration which features Foscarini on a wagon playing the
lute
>>>>> >> together with a girl with a triangle and a violone player
which
>>>>> >> apparently dates from 1615 and is part of an illustration of
a >> feast
>>>>> >> held for the Archduchess Isabella Clara Eugenia, the wife of
the
>>>>> >> Archduke Albert.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Does anyone know anything about this illustration and
whether the
>>>>> >> lutenist is clearly identified as Foscarini. I have done a
bit >> of
>>>>> >> surfing the net but haven't found any trace of it.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Monica
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> --
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>To get on or off this list see list information at
>>>>> >>[15]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>>>> >
>>>>> > ========================================
>>>>> >
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
--
References
1. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=arthurjn...@verizon.net
2. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
3. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
4. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
5. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
6. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
7. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=brai...@osu.edu
8. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=brai...@osu.edu
9. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
10.
http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
11.
http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
12. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr
13. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
14. http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O18973/painting-the-ommeganck-in-
15. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
