Good question - I don't know of any. Certainly, if we had examples of the 1616 born S Luc's work from mid-century and it exhibited a quite different style to contemporaries but similar to that in the later Prague and Vienne MSs, then this might be good evidence for considering that it was the same man who composed the later MSs. Incidentally, the historic events referred to in these are all 18th century.
MH --- On Sat, 2/4/11, wikla <[email protected]> wrote: From: wikla <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Saint-Luc again. Was: Foscarini Experience To: "Roland Hayes" <[email protected]> Cc: "Martyn Hodgson" <[email protected]>, "A. J. Ness" <[email protected]>, "Lutelist" <[email protected]> Date: Saturday, 2 April, 2011, 21:17 Dear all, just an innocent question: where can you find music by Saint-Luc in the "early style", I mean the more or less French style before the more or less "galant" oriented style? I suppose - by reading this interesting discussion - that there are two styles of Saint-Luc(s). Are there? Best, Arto On Sat, 2 Apr 2011 14:14:14 -0400, "Roland Hayes" <[1][email protected]> wrote: > MH you should feel free to suggest and speculate but until you have a > cold hard fact you should continue to label your speculations as > such. For the researchers AJN is referring to, their research has > reached an end for now on there being only one St luc. enough!! > __________________________________________________________________ > > From: [2][email protected] on behalf of Martyn Hodgson > Sent: Sat 4/2/2011 3:45 AM > To: A. J. Ness > Cc: Lutelist > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Saint-Luc again. Was: Foscarini Experience > > Dear Arthur, > Many thanks for this: I'm acquainted with Vendrix's work (and his > credentials!) and was therefore rather dismayed he seemed so > absolutely > convinced that the very elderly S Luc (born 1616) was the same > person > as journeyed across Europe to play in a concert and composed the > works > in the Prague and Vienna MSs in an early 18th century style. Others, > as > well as I, have questioned this and suggested a son or some other > relation (or even non-relation) may be another lutenist S Luc. As > said > earlier, my current speculation is the elder S Luc's oldest son > (also > named Jacques). > You say that Vendrix states that 'there is no evidence that S Luc's > sons were musicians'. It is certainly the case that he says this > but > he then goes on to imply by a dodgy logic that this means they were > definitely not musicians. But, of course, a lack of evidence works > both > ways: there is no evidence that they were not musicians - simply > that > we haven't uncovered any as yet. This, essentially, is my reason for > suggesting that more research is required and, certainly, that one > should refrain from mere assertion which, as you know, can so easily > become generally accepted; especially if from the pen of a scholar > like > M Vendrix. > I take your point that 90+ isn't at death's door these days and I'm > sorry Arthur, that you're upset about this - but, you may agree, > 90+ > was pretty exceptional for 1700. However more than this, I suggest > we > need to be very careful in assuming the elder S Luc was the S Luc of > the two MSs: it might be the case that he was, but until then I > suggest > we need to keep the matter open. > Finally, I don't know about 'harm' being done, but if assumptions > are > tested and have to be justified that seems to me to be a very good > thing. > regards > Martyn > --- On Fri, 1/4/11, A. J. Ness <[3][email protected]> wrote: > From: A. J. Ness <[4][email protected]> > Subject: [LUTE] Saint-Luc again. Was: Foscarini Experience > To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[5][email protected]>, "Monica Hall" > <[6][email protected]> > Cc: "Lutelist" <[7][email protected]> > Date: Friday, 1 April, 2011, 15:49 > Dear Martyn, > The problem is not that the level of Saint-Luc research is poor. > It's > rather > high, and dates back to the 19th century. And it is simply not true > that > the principal writers are generalists. > Philippe Vendrix, a lutenist, is one of France's leading > musicologists. > He is dean of the Centre d'Etudes Superiores de la Renaissance, > He is Director of Research for the Centre National de la Recherche > Scientifique, > And he is editor-in-chief of Acta Musicologica (the journal of the > International Musicological Society). > His partner in Saint-Luc research is Manuel Couveur, Professor of > Musicology > at the Free University of Brussels. > Between them, they really have all bases covered, French and > Flemish, > so to > speak (to use an American baseball metaphor). They are positioned > not > only > by expertise, but also geographically to examine archival records > related to > Saint-Luc. > Brussels, may I remind you, was Jacques de Saint-Luc's musical home > town. > He was not French. He was trained at court with ITALIAN and SPANISH > musicians, under the director of chamber music, Giuseppe Zamponi. > Jacques > performed villancicos at court when he was 13 (was he a > Wunderkind?), > and > the > court owned vihuelas. His teacher may have been court > lutenist/theorbist > Philippe > Vermeulen, who as a youngster was sent by the court to Italy to > "perfect" > his abilities on theorbo with Piccinini. > The "cantabile" of his style that Baron remarked > about, was there from the Italian influences of his training. He > didn't > write 200 pieces all in Vienna. That he wrote so much music is > accounted > for by his attaining the age of at least 96. > I think I resent more than anything your suggestion that he was too > old > and > feebled to write music and travel, and using that as an excuse to > attribute > his works to his sons. And he was not in his 90s when he traveled to > Berlin. > He was 84. The sensation of his playing may have been due to his > age. > Was Verdi feeble-minded when he wrote Otello and Falstaff? What > about > Stravinsky? > One would never have expected him to end his career writing serial > music. > THERE IS NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER THAT SAINT-LUC'S SONS WERE > MUSICIANS. > And you can bet Couveur and Vendrix looked high and low to find > them. > The > Saint-Lucs were NOT a dynastic family of musicians. > Enough for now. The harm is done, and Couveur and Vendrix have > already > begun > to set the record straight. Our responsibility is to realize what > happened > as a result of those fictional original New Grove and 1963 MGG > articles. > The recent New Grove Saint-Luc article has been completely > re-written. > I > haven't seen the latest MGG. Arthur. > ============================================== > To: "A. J. Ness" <[1][8][email protected]>; "Monica Hall" > <[2][9][email protected]> > Cc: "Lutelist" <[3][10][email protected]> > Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2011 4:59 PM > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience > > > > Well - as you both already well know - the current level of > scholarship > > is so poor that the elder and younger Saint Jacques generally > appear as > > one. > > > > But the real issue is that the real passion and merit of this > music > is > > lost by such a generalist approach. > > > > ythfo > > > > Martyn > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Thu, 31/3/11, Monica Hall <[4][11][email protected]> > wrote: > > > > From: Monica Hall <[5][12][email protected]> > > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience > > To: "A. J. Ness" <[6][13][email protected]> > > Cc: "Lutelist" <[7][14][email protected]> > > Date: Thursday, 31 March, 2011, 21:01 > > > > Don't even mention Grove - as far as the baroque guitar is > concerned it > > is full of errors.<sigh, sigh. sigh> > > Monica > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "A. J. Ness" > > <[1][8][15][email protected]> > > To: "Monica Hall" <[2][9][16][email protected]> > > Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2011 8:56 PM > > Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience > > > That's what makes me angry about the Jacques de Saint-Luc > article > in > > New Grove (first ed. and MGG 1963). Musica Rara has puibo. all > the > > Suittes dessus and bassus, andattributres them one by one to > three > > different composers named St.Luc.<sigh> > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Monica Hall" > > <[3][10][17][email protected]> > > > To: "Monica Hall" <[4][11][18][email protected]> > > > Cc: "Lutelist" <[5][12][19][email protected]> > > > Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2011 3:23 PM > > > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience > > > > > > > > >> Yes - the music is fun and I really enjoyed hearing the solo > pieces > > too - but liner notes are just nonsense. They have just made > it > all > > up as a kind of concept to hang the recording on. > > >> > > >> Really it's irresponsible - because what they have said is > now > being > > repeated as if it were true. > > >> > > >> What a world we live in..... > > >> > > >> Monica > > >> > > >> > > >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Monica Hall" > > <[6][13][20][email protected]> > > >> To: "Eugene C. Braig IV" <[7][14][21][email protected]> > > >> Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2011 8:20 PM > > >> Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience > > >> > > >> > > >>> > > >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eugene C. Braig IV" > > <[8][15][22][email protected]> > > >>> To: "'Lutelist'" <[9][16][23][email protected]> > > >>> Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2011 8:12 PM > > >>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience > > >>> > > >>> > > >>>> I quite like that CD (especially the guitar solos that they > opted > > to record > > >>>> as solos), but the liner notes do strike me as a bit > "whimsical." > > >>>> > > >>>> Eugene > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>> -----Original Message----- > > >>>>> From: [10][17][24][email protected] > > [mailto:[11][18][25][email protected]] On > > >>>>> Behalf Of Monica Hall > > >>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2011 3:10 PM > > >>>>> To: Jean-Marie Poirier > > >>>>> Cc: Lutelist > > >>>>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Wow - that was quick work. That must be the picture. > But > is > > there any > > >>>>> evidence that the lutenist is Foscarini? > > >>>>> > > >>>>> To be honest - when I first read the liner notes to the CD > I > > thought they > > >>>>> were a work of fiction. But perhaps I am missing > something. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Monica > > >>>>> > > >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- > > >>>>> From: "Jean-Marie Poirier" <[12][19][26][email protected]> > > >>>>> To: "Monica Hall" <[13][20][27][email protected]> > > >>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2011 8:05 PM > > >>>>> Subject: Re: [LUTE] Foscarini Experience > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > Monica, > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > Would that be the picture you are looking for ? > > >>>>> > If yes, it's just across the street, VAM ;-) ! > > >>>>> > Here's a link with details : > > >>>>> > > > > [14][21][1][28]http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O18973/painting-the-om meg > anck-in- > > >>>>> brussels-on/ > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > All the best, > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > Jean-Marie > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > ================================= > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > == En reponse au message du 31-03-2011, 20:54:29 == > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> >> I came across this CD by the group Foscarini > Experience > > with the > > >>>>> title > > >>>>> >> "Bon voyage" some time ago. In the liner notes it > > mentions an > > >>>>> >> illustration which features Foscarini on a wagon > playing > the > > lute > > >>>>> >> together with a girl with a triangle and a violone > player > > which > > >>>>> >> apparently dates from 1615 and is part of an > illustration of > > a >> feast > > >>>>> >> held for the Archduchess Isabella Clara Eugenia, the > wife of > > the > > >>>>> >> Archduke Albert. > > >>>>> >> > > >>>>> >> > > >>>>> >> > > >>>>> >> Does anyone know anything about this illustration and > > whether the > > >>>>> >> lutenist is clearly identified as Foscarini. I have > done a > > bit >> of > > >>>>> >> surfing the net but haven't found any trace of it. > > >>>>> >> > > >>>>> >> > > >>>>> >> > > >>>>> >> Monica > > >>>>> >> > > >>>>> >> > > >>>>> >> > > >>>>> >> > > >>>>> >> > > >>>>> >> -- > > >>>>> >> > > >>>>> >> > > >>>>> >>To get on or off this list see list information at > > >>>>> > >>[15][22][2][29]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > ======================================== > > >>>>> > > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > -- > > > > References > > > > 1. > > [23][3][30]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=arthurjness@ver izon > .ne > t > > 2. > > [24][4][31]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlhall@tiscali .co. > uk > > 3. > > [25][5][32]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlhall@tiscali .co. > uk > > 4. > > [26][6][33]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlhall@tiscali .co. > uk > > 5. > > [27][7][34]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] th.e > du > > 6. > > [28][8][35]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlhall@tiscali .co. > uk > > 7. > [29][9][36]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > > 8. > [30][10][37]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] u > > 9. > > [31][11][38]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] uth. > edu > > 10. > > > > [32][12][39]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] rtmo > uth. > edu > > 11. > > > > [33][13][40]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] rtmo > uth. > edu > > 12. > > [34][14][41]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=jmpoirier2@wan adoo > .fr > > 13. > > [35][15][42]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlhall@tiscal i.co > .uk > > 14. > > [36][16][43]http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O18973/painting-the-ommeg anck > -in- > > 15. > [37][17][44]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > -- > References > 1. > [18][45]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=arthurjness@verizo n.ne > t > 2. > [19][46]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] .uk > 3. > [20][47]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]. edu > 4. > [21][48]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] .uk > 5. > [22][49]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] .uk > 6. > [23][50]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=arthurjness@verizo n.ne > t > 7. > [24][51]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]. edu > 8. > [25][52]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=arthurjness@verizo n.ne > t > 9. > [26][53]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] .uk > 10. > [27][54]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] .uk > 11. > [28][55]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] .uk > 12. > [29][56]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]. edu > 13. > [30][57]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] .uk > 14. 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http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 18. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 19. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 20. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 21. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 22. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 23. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 24. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 25. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 26. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 27. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 28. http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O18973/painting-the-ommeg 29. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 30. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=arthurjness@verizon 31. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 32. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 33. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 34. 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http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O18973/painting-the-ommeganck-in- 120. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 121. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 122. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 123. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 124. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 125. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 126. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 127. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 128. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 129. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 130. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 131. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 132. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 133. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 134. http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O18973/painting-the-ommeganck-in- 135. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
