Sean's point is interesting. Whether unison or octave tuning on the 6th course (or above) might well depend on whether gut or synthetic strings are used. I've never been comfortable with octave stringing above the 7th course of my 8 course instrument since I often play thumb-index on the 6th as well as the higher courses (sometimes in solo literature, but especially in ensemble music). I prefer the sound of unisons when played t-i. Were I to go to gut, I might find that I would need to go to octave tuning, and have to learn to accustom myself to that sound, and/or alter my technique. On Nov 20, 2011, at 2:13 PM, Sean Smith wrote:
> > Bill > > That's a good question and we should all get a chance to listen to the > experiment. I did and from my experience a unison-strung 6c is pretty clunky > to play. When you have two ropey gut 6th course basses side by side you run > into intonation (and buzzing) problems and it's pretty difficult to get a > good tone playing both w/ a thumb. It also gets difficult to finger on the > left hand. To my ear it becomes muddy. > > As I understand it, playing with octaves you should play the fundamental and > brush the octave (simultaineously) as a habit so the ear hears the bass note > correctly and still unconsciously digests the overtones keeping the sound > bright and light. > > This is only my interpretation of it over the years. > > Sean > > > On Nov 20, 2011, at 10:53 AM, William Samson wrote: > > Certainly, Ed. But how many vihuelas do we see nowadays in these > configurations? In fact I wonder if there's a single one that isn't > set up with unisons throughout and a double first? We're very > conservative (with a small 'c') when it comes to pushing the envelope. > I wonder if there was any recognised difference between how lutes and > vihuelas were strung in a given place at the time. Nowadays, though, > we're very blinkered about it all and conform to templates which are in > some ways questionable. > I'd love to hear Milan, say, played on an octave strung vihuela, or > Milano on a unison strung 6c lute. > Bill > From: Edward Martin <[email protected]> > To: William Samson <[email protected]>; "[email protected]" > <[email protected]> > Sent: Sunday, 20 November 2011, 18:31 > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Double 1st string on 6 course lutes? > Thanks for the reference, Bill. There have been new discoveries > since the time the article was written, where we now cannot claim > that vihuelas were string in unison. Some were, others were > not. They may have had the double first course, but there is > evidence to the contrary that some vihuelas were string in octaves on > 4,5, and 6th courses. > ed > At 12:02 PM 11/20/2011, William Samson wrote: >> I've found the reference - Segerman and Abbott, FoMRHI Comm number > 30, >> July 1976 >> [1][1]http://www.fomrhi.org/uploads/bulletins/Fomrhi-004.pdf >> >> They say (p37) "Instruments which come to mind that had double > first >> courses and unison basses were >> 1. Vihuela >> 2. Robinson (1603) and Dowland (1610) lute. >> 3. At least some late 16th century Italian lutes. . . . ." >> >> They give references on which they base these statements. >> >> Interesting stuff. What I find odd is that we've been channelled > into >> a mindset where just about all 6c lutes built nowadays have single >> first courses and octaves on 6, 5 and 4. Lutes with 7 or more > courses >> have unisons on 5, 4, 3, 2 and a single first, and octaves from 6 >> downwards. 11 and 13 c lutes have single 1st and second courses > but >> 12c lutes have double second courses. All very formulaic and I'm > as >> guilty as anyone of following these 'rules'. But there's plenty > of >> evidence of more varied configurations in use at the time, and it > would >> be surprising if there wasn't. It's a pity that these differences >> don't show up in modern practice, though I fully understand why - >> resale value for example, and maybe an assumption that as these > seem to >> have ended up as the most successful configurations at the time, >> there's no need to explore anything else. >> >> Bill >> >> PS Oh yes - and octave stringing works out cheaper too :o) >> From: Daniel Winheld <[2][email protected]> >> To: William Samson <[3][email protected]> >> Cc: "[4][email protected]" <[5][email protected]> >> Sent: Sunday, 20 November 2011, 17:05 >> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Double 1st string on 6 course lutes? >>>> " I seem to remember that lutes with a double chanterelle were >> usually strung in unisons." >> Mimmo Peruffo disputes that assumption: from his website page > "The >> lute in its historical reality"- >> 9. Double treble and unison courses: the fact that the vihuela was >> generally (but not always) strung with a double treble led some >> scholars to take that as evidence in favour of all courses having > been >> strung with unisons. We fail to grasp the logic of it. There is, > on the >> other hand, evidence proving that the vihuela could have a single >> treble, whereas most Renaissance lutes where strung with double >> trebles. >> [2][6]http://www.mimmoperuffo.org/9e.htm >> On Nov 19, 2011, at 11:42 PM, William Samson wrote: >>> Again - I've forgotten the source (probably Eph Segerman), but > I >> seem >>> to remember that lutes with a double chanterelle were usually > strung >> in >>> unisons. I do know that Eph had a 7c lute made like this and > strung >>> with catlines (his own manufacture - Northern Renaissance >> Instruments) >>> in the basses. It certainly worked very well, but sounded > 'darker' >>> than a lute with octave stringing in the basses. >>> Bill >>> From: wikla <[3][7][email protected]> >>> To: [4][8][email protected] >>> Sent: Saturday, 19 November 2011, 20:51 >>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Double 1st string on 6 course lutes? >>> Thanks to all for the most interesting answers! >>> I actually just ordered a 6 courser, model Venere (the > original, the >>> model, >>> was a 7 courser, I suppose?) from Lauri Niskanen, the guy who > made >> my >>> new >>> 11 courser. And I ordered an option to double chanterelle - > just one >>> extra >>> peg, just 3 grooves and 3 holes up and down. >>> Any more constructive ideas what to hope and ask? >>> best, >>> Arto >>> To get on or off this list see list information at >>> [1][5][9]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>> >>> -- >>> >>> References >>> >>> 1. > [6][10]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>> >> -- >> >> -- >> >> References >> >> 1. [11]http://www.fomrhi.org/uploads/bulletins/Fomrhi-004.pdf >> 2. [12]http://www.mimmoperuffo.org/9e.htm >> 3. mailto:[13][email protected] >> 4. mailto:[14][email protected] >> 5. [15]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> 6. [16]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > Edward Martin > 2817 East 2nd Street > Duluth, Minnesota 55812 > e-mail: [17][email protected] > voice: (218) 728-1202 > [18]http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=name > [19]http://www.myspace.com/edslute > [20]http://magnatune.com/artists/edward_martin > > -- > > References > > 1. http://www.fomrhi.org/uploads/bulletins/Fomrhi-004.pdf > 2. mailto:[email protected] > 3. mailto:[email protected] > 4. mailto:[email protected] > 5. mailto:[email protected] > 6. http://www.mimmoperuffo.org/9e.htm > 7. mailto:[email protected] > 8. mailto:[email protected] > 9. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > 10. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > 11. http://www.fomrhi.org/uploads/bulletins/Fomrhi-004.pdf > 12. http://www.mimmoperuffo.org/9e.htm > 13. mailto:[email protected] > 14. mailto:[email protected] > 15. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > 16. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > 17. mailto:[email protected] > 18. http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=name > 19. http://www.myspace.com/edslute > 20. http://magnatune.com/artists/edward_martin > > >
