Dear Chris, Perhaps 'rolled' chords were common - as you say, there's no early evidence for them which may mean they were not used or if used then not reported. But we do know that other ways of playing chords were reported so why not this one if it were practised?
And I see no conflict between being 'informed' and, even, practising historical techniques with enhancing the music: the two are not mutually exclusive. Indeed some might suggest that employing historical technique serves the music and the composers' intentions best and so further enhances the music. Martyn --- On Fri, 16/11/12, Christopher Wilke <[email protected]> wrote: From: Christopher Wilke <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Re/deconstructing Dowland; - and 'rolled' chords To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[email protected]>, "WALSH STUART" <[email protected]> Cc: "lute" <[email protected]> Date: Friday, 16 November, 2012, 14:28 Martyn, The use of rolled chords, like so many things in early music performance, has to be assigned to the "inconclusive" category. Lack of evidence does not mean lack of practice. For example, the subject is rarely mentioned in modern classical guitar methods even though it is a ubiquitous. Rolling may just have been one of those things that was done without comment. Who knows? As always, our primary concern should not be with how "informed" we are, but whether or not what we do enhances the music. Chris Christopher Wilke Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer www.christopherwilke.com ----- Original Message ----- Re [LUTE] Re: Re/deconstructing Dowland; - and 'rolled' chords Friday, 16 November, 2012 13:58 From: "Martyn Hodgson" [1][email protected] To: "WALSH STUART" <[email protected]> Cc: "lute" <[email protected]> Dear Stuart, I agree with you that we need to be wary in our (modern) assessments of many of these works. For example, some of these lute 'solos', both by Dowland and other lute playing composers, may be lute parts to a consort or a duet and can seem strangely incomplete whilst still fooling modern editors (eg Holborne's 'The Cradle' in Dd.2.11. - noted on page 8 of the recent Lute Society edition), so we need to be careful before discarding them onto the scrap heap of musical spam. I'm also uneasy of imposing our ideas of what was the 'right' harmonic practice at the time: 'crude' harmonies might be as much a stylistic trait as a sign of compositional rudeness. Regarding 'rolled' chords also raised in this thread, these seem to be (too?) ubiquitous in this repertoire nowadays and early sources (ie pre-17th century) don't generally describe the technique. Only when we get to the French 17th century lute with separe signs and the like is the expectation for such fully upwards arpeggiated chords clear. Even Barley, a perhaps unfairly maligned source, indicates a technique for playing full 6 note chords or open 5 note chords not too far removed from that described by later sources (including Mace and Burwell's teacher as well as by continental instructions), in which the first finger rakes upwards (ie towards the bass) to cover some of the courses whilst the second and third fingers strike the others. I would suggest this was more common than we often suppose nowadays and perhaps led onto the later practice of playing the bass and simultaneously raking up with the first finger - with the possible added sophistication of restriking the highest course or two with the second finger - almost the opposite of a modern 'rolled' chord. Martyn --- On Thu, 15/11/12, WALSH STUART <[2][email protected]> wrote: From: WALSH STUART <[3][email protected]> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Reconstructing Dowland; deconstructing Dowland To: "David van Ooijen" <[4][email protected]> Cc: "lute" <[5][email protected]> Date: Thursday, 15 November, 2012, 23:01 Beautiful playing. I wouldn't have known this was a modern reconstruction. But I don't know the music well and I haven't listened to Dowland in a long time and I don't try and play the music. But I'm very, very surprised (and intrigued and amused) that it needs reconstruction, DIY or otherwise. Two questions: a) where does this idea leave all the great performances of Dowland and those CD compilations of the complete works? Lindberg, North. O'Dette, Chris Wilson etc. They simply didn't notice any fundamental issues with the music? b) is Dowland's music uniquely flawed? (needs extra parts, needs cliched florid bits excised, need voice-leading corrected etc). Dowland is often posed as the pinnacle of Renaissance lute music. If the sources of his music is fundamentally compromised, where does that leave all the other lute music of the Renaissance? Does it all need a bit of modern polishing into shape too? (and how is a modern person somehow seeing through the sources to what Dowland would have wanted beyond the abundant evidence of what people at the time physically recorded in the tablatures?) Stuart On 15 November 2012 22:07, David van Ooijen <[1][1][6][email protected]> wrote: On 15 November 2012 22:12, WALSH STUART <[2][2][7][email protected]> wrote: > Well, isn't anyone other than Dan going to reply to this? I was > expecting a huge response! My (two but) latest CD is a response: two 'new' Dowland solos `a la dt, albeit reconstructed and played by DvO. ;-) In other words: dt is right, DIY-Dowland is the way to go! David I even uploaded both arrangements to YouTube: [3][3][8]http://youtu.be/1tSrVURBLfs [4][4][9]http://youtu.be/UcfQSeYUK_M -- ******************************* David van Ooijen [5][5][10][email protected] [6]www.davidvanooijen.nl ******************************* To get on or off this list see list information at [7][6][11]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:[7][12][email protected] 2. mailto:[8][13][email protected] 3. [9][14]http://youtu.be/1tSrVURBLfs 4. [10][15]http://youtu.be/UcfQSeYUK_M 5. mailto:[11][16][email protected] 6. [12][17]http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ 7. [13][18]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [19]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%C3%9Avidvanooijen@gmai l.com 2. [20]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 3. [21]http://youtu.be/1tSrVURBLfs 4. [22]http://youtu.be/UcfQSeYUK_M 5. [23]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%C3%9Avidvanooijen@gmai l.com 6. [24]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 7. [25]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%C3%9Avidvanooijen@gmai l.com 8. [26]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 9. [27]http://youtu.be/1tSrVURBLfs 10. [28]http://youtu.be/UcfQSeYUK_M 11. [29]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%C3%9Avidvanooijen@gmai l.com 12. [30]http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ 13. [31]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:[email protected] 2. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 3. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 4. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%c3%[email protected] 5. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 6. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%c3%[email protected] 7. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 8. http://youtu.be/1tSrVURBLfs 9. http://youtu.be/UcfQSeYUK_M 10. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%c3%[email protected] 11. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 12. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%c3%[email protected] 13. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 14. http://youtu.be/1tSrVURBLfs 15. http://youtu.be/UcfQSeYUK_M 16. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%c3%[email protected] 17. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ 18. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 19. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%c3%[email protected] 20. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 21. http://youtu.be/1tSrVURBLfs 22. http://youtu.be/UcfQSeYUK_M 23. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%c3%[email protected] 24. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 25. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%c3%[email protected] 26. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 27. http://youtu.be/1tSrVURBLfs 28. http://youtu.be/UcfQSeYUK_M 29. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%c3%[email protected] 30. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ 31. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
