I don't see why blocks as such might aggravate buzzing - they're widely used on guitars both ancient and modern. But you'll see from previous mailings that their use is not historically found on lutes and I really don't think they are necessary so, as mentioned earlier, I'd personally not advocate their use.
MH --- On Tue, 12/2/13, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote: From: [email protected] <[email protected]> Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Further to: Bar end supports on lutes To: [email protected] Date: Tuesday, 12 February, 2013, 14:58 Excuse my ignorance, but wouldn't support blocks under the bars be a very possible source of buzzing? ..unless one used glue, in which case top removal would be much more difficult? -----Original Message----- From: Martyn Hodgson <[1][email protected]> To: David Van Edwards <[2][email protected]> Cc: Lute builder Dmth <[3][email protected]> Sent: Fri, Feb 8, 2013 4:18 am Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Further to: Bar end supports on lutes Dear David, I well take your point about Hellwig's observations. But, it's not just my observations of the Stautinger. More significantly here's what Mace has to say (incidentally, he recognises the nerve-wracking aspect of the operation and says " Then fear nothing, but boldly proceed to the Uniting"....). " ....anoint all the Edges Carefully round, where you know they must Joyn, and every Barr-end be sure you touch well, ......" . Of course Mace wasn't a professional builder or repairer but I presume he had been originally instructed by a London repairer (he says if you don't want to repair it yourself there's no choice but to pack it off to London). regardsa Martyn --- On Thu, 7/2/13, David Van Edwards <[4][email protected]> wrote: From: David Van Edwards <[5][email protected]> Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Further to: Bar end supports on lutes To: "William Samson" <[6][email protected]> Cc: "Martyn Hodgson" <[7][email protected]>, "Lute builder Dmth" <[8][email protected]> Date: Thursday, 7 February, 2013, 16:39 Yes, as far as I have observed no lutes were made using support blocks, however obvious it would be to give strength. In fact one of the commonest problems with amateur made instruments is the tendency to make things too strong. It is a maxim to bear in mind that lutes sound best when right on the point of collapse! Trembling with fear as it were! I do remember many years ago asking Friedmann Hellwig specifically about whether he thought bar ends were glued to the ribs and he said quite clearly that he thought not. Maybe accidental glue in the joint there, but nothing deliberate he said. He has probably examined more original lutes than anyone, so I'm inclined to take him seriously. But of course this is not to deny Martyn's observation of the Stautinger mandora, different makers probably had different practices, even then. Best wishes, David At 15:32 +0000 7/2/13, William Samson wrote: > Dear Martyn, > > What you say makes perfect sense. I will continue to follow the > example set by the old ones. > > Kind regards, > > Bill > From: Martyn Hodgson <[1][9][email protected]> > To: Lute builder Dmth <[2][10][email protected]> > Sent: Thursday, 7 February 2013, 14:46 > Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Further to: Bar end supports on lutes > Further to the recent mailings about using supports to the bar ends > of > lutes (as commonly found on guitars) to avoid then becoming loose, > there were few responses and the gist seemed to bit that it was a > good > idea and unlikely to injure the instrument's tone. > This may be the case, but I'd like to insert a note of caution: as > far > as I'm aware no old lute has such bar end supports so we need to be > very careful before considering their general modern use. Perhaps > the > slight angle between the rib and belly - a little less than a right > angle - provides sufficient end support if the bars are fitted > precisely to the rib and at the exact same angle (not possible on the > guitar which is a right angle). And, of course, the vast majority of > lute makers did not seem to make guitars - and vice-versa (few > exceptions such as Tielke of course and a some workshops) . > One other factor which provides more secure bar end fixing also > occurs > to me: Mace speaks of a method of sticking on the belly in one > operation (and of ensuring the bar ends are very well applied with > glue). It's a procedure I now usually follow and, tho' it can be a > bit > nerve-wracking, the capability of animal glue to be readily remelted > in-situ allows post fixing adjustments to be easily made (and indeed > Mace mentions this). If one makes a pig's ear of the whole business > one > can remove again, clean up and try again next day. It occurs to me > that the (modern?) method of sticking on a lute belly by working > slowly > round trying to get glue into the join is fine - except when one > comes > to the bar end where it can be difficult to ensure one has worked in > sufficient glue - in short the bar end may be starved. > The latest original historic lute I've been able to examine inside in > detail is a 1773 instrument by Stautinger which exhibits all lute > construction features and has no bar end supports. Altho an internal > repair had taken place to the back which had suffered a serious dent, > access had been made by the rose being cut out (and crudely replaced > after) rather than the belly being removed; the original belly > fixing/gluing was still (I believe) in place - and the external > wooden > liner (as commonly found on 18th century lutes) seemed wholly > undisturbed. All the bars were still glued securely to the sides > (with > quite a bit of squeeze out evident on a few too). > In short, if the bar ends are closely fitted to the angled ribs and > sufficient glue is put onto the ends I think there is no need to > consider additional supports like those being suggested. But I > understand very high humidity, in the US especially, may be a > contributory factor to bar end failure with which we here do not have > to cope...... > MH > -- > To get on or off this list see list information at > [1][3][11]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > -- > >References > > 1. [4][12]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- The Smokehouse, 6 Whitwell Road, Norwich, NR1 4HB England. Telephone: + 44 (0)1603 629899 Website: [5][13]http://www.vanedwards.co.uk -- References 1. [14]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] .uk 2. [15]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] uth.edu 3. [16]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 4. [17]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 5. [18]http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/ -- -- References 1. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 2. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%c3%[email protected] 3. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 4. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%c3%[email protected] 5. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%c3%[email protected] 6. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 7. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 8. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 9. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 10. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 11. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 12. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 13. http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/ 14. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 15. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 16. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 17. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 18. http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/
