So the Cellier drawing is possibly backwards with a wide doubled first course and a single bass? Interesting. I have seen quite a few reversed images, compliments of quick printing or drawing that didn't anticipate the reversal or figured the audience wouldn't notice. I don't expect it to not happen. Being a lithographer myself in a former age it's often what I look for first in an old print.
Having set those Italian dances a few years back I well know the limitations of the guitar. The disregard for laws of inversion are somewhat akin to the printer not caring for the reversal: some will notice; some won't; there are some ocasions where it simply doesn't matter and times that it does. One can't promise to please everybody with only 4 courses. I will still consider this 'split' solution under limited circumstances now that I know it's not verboten. I'm not going to reverse my 4th course order just yet tho ... unless you have some evidence that it was done on the 4c in the mid-16th century. I do notice that Tyler's tuning in the intro to Granlon/Fezandat's facsimile has the octave on the outside but he doesn't say why. Sean On May 14, 2015, at 1:48 AM, Monica Hall wrote: There is never any evidence that something was never done! As a matter of interest I have put the illustration from British Library Add.Ms.30342 on my page at earlyguitar.ning.for those of you who belong. This is the same as the Cellier drawing. The two drawings are thought to have been copied independently from an earlier printed source. One possible explanation is that the plate for the original engraving did not reproduce the drawing as a mirror image so that when it was printed it was the wrong way round. What Michael thinks is a widely spaced 4th course is really a single 1st course. The manuscripts both reproduce a drawing of an organ. This has the pipes the wrong way round -the shortest on the left, the longest on the right. This is a common error in engravings. There is an article in the Galpin Society Journal of 1960 by Susi Jeans and Guy Oldham about the two manuscripts. I am afraid I think the whole of Michael's article is bunk! He has just reproduced the illustrations from Tyler's books and taken them at face value. He hasn't researched the background to any of them. As for as the idiocyncracies which we find in the music - I am afraid these just go with the territory. A 4-course instrument is quite limited and the music just has to be arranged in a way that it can be played. You just have to get used to it. Things were very different in the 16th century. Regards Monica ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sean Smith" <[email protected]> To: "lute" <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, May 14, 2015 9:21 AM Subject: [LUTE] Michael Fink's split 4th article > > Thank you for your doubt, Monica. I'm looking at the second Conte Clare in > Morlaye's second book and the frequent use of the > > d > a > a > a > > chord as the tonic. It keeps suggesting to my ear that to put the lowest > sounding note on the 3rd course and to use the 4th octave as the 5th in > its more proper place. Granted, he may have less ambiguously used > > d > d > e > f > > but he didn't - quite a few times. There would have been no question of > where the root was. > > Also look at m. 12 going to 13. If one plays the 4th low string you get a > parallel octave against the treble line (again in m. 22). > > Was Morlaye simply 'less discriminationg' or did he have other tricks up > his sleeve? The practice made sense to my ear long before I read Michael's > article. I'll admit I was appreciative to see some support for it. If we > assume that all of Michael's argument is bunk is there any evidence that > it was never done? Forbidden even? > > Oddly - and confusingly to this bundle of threads - it was Capirola that > first suggested it. The final chord to Nunqua fuit (53r) wants > clarification - that low A in the F chord is a curious note, isn't it? In > the vocal original, no note went to the lower octave (which we don't have > in this tuning of the 6c anyway) and neither was there a third. Did he > want just any old low note there - even the 3rd will do even though > nothing leads to it? A solution is to play only the 6th octave where the > 3rd falls into a better place and adds the lightest hint of 3rd to the > root-5th. What do other players suggest here? > > > Sean > > > > > > > > And if I might ask you a lute question, what do you make of the final > chord in 'Nunqua fuit' in the Capirola (f53)? > > Sean > > > On May 13, 2015, at 1:42 AM, Monica Hall wrote: > > I am sorry to say that what Michael has said in this article is highly > contentious and doesn't support the idea that the 4-course guitar was > deliberately strung so that the strings of the fourth course could be used > independently. > > > > 1. The three examples which Michael refers to are flawed and can't be > taken as proof of the stringing arrangement which he proposes. > > > > Giovanni Smit 4-course guitar (Vienna Kuntsthistorisches Museum SAM 49) > > > > This is actually one of a pair of similar instruments dating 1646. The > present stringing is just what the Museum has come up with and gives no > indication of the original arrangement. It is uncertain whether the > bridge, or the spacing of the strings is original. > > What is not clear from the photos is that both instruments are very small > with a scale length of only 37cms - much smaller than what is considered > the norm for 4-course guitar; > > Michael says "The Smit guitar was undoubtedly tuned according to Ex.2a" > i.e.with a bourdon on the 4th course. We simply don't know whether this > was so. It would certainly have been tuned at least a minor 3rd higher > than what is assumed to be standard 4-course guitar pitch today. Pitch: c" > (or d" ). Hardly suitable for the 16th century 4-course repertoire. > > > > The two other drawings which he has reproduced are just artists > impressions - they are not photographs. The Cellier drawing may not be > accurate. There are obvious errors in the some of the other drawings in > the manuscript. The illustration of Carlo Cantu dates from the 1630s or > later and may actually be of a 5-course guitar. > > > > French/Flemish iconography. > > > > The illustrations in the Morlaye books and in Phalese clearly show the > strings equally spaced on all courses. > > > > There are at least two other illustrations showing normal string spacing. > > > > Harvey Turnbull pl. 17a & 18 & p. 141. Both show the strings of the 4th > course close together. > > > > 17a French - engraving from Bib. Nat. Paris. > > > > 18. Atributed to Tobias Stimmer 1539-1584. Swiss painter and > illustrator. Died in Strasbourg. One of 10 engravings in N.Y. Public > Library - Astor, Llennox and Tilden Foundation. > > > > There is also an illustration of a 4-course guitar in a Spanish source > Francisco Guerrero - Sacrae Cantiones (Seville, 1555). It is difficult > to see the spacing but it seems to be equal. Harvey Turnbull pl. 16a & p. > 141. > > > > I have posted these on my earlyguitar.ning.com site. This topic was > discussed there in some length a few weeks ago. > > > > Bermudo > > > > What Bermudo says does not really underline the universal use of standard > tuning. Like so many people Michael has just taken the sentence out of > context. He has omitted part of it and is just reading into it what he > wants. > > > > Bermudo says that "They usually put on the 4th course another string" > which suggests that they did not always. > > > > f.96 - Suelen poner a la quarta de la guitarra otra cuerda, que le llaman > requinta. No se, si quando este nombre pusieron a la tal cuerda: formava > con la dicha quarta un diapente, que es quinta perfecta: y por esto tomo > nombre de requinta. Ahora no tienen este temple: mas forman ambas cuerdas > una octava: segun tiene el laud, o vihuela de Flandes Este instrumento > teniendo las tres, o quatro ordenes de cuerdas dobladas, que forman entre > si octavas: dizen tener las cuerdas requintadas. > > > > They usually put on the fourth course of the guitar another string which > they call "requinta". I do not know whether when they gave this name to > this string {in the past] it made the interval of a 5th with the fourth > course, and for this reason it has this name. Today it is not tuned in > this way; instead the two strings form an octave in the same way as on > the lute, or "vihuela de Flandes" [i.e. another name for the lute]. > Because this instrument [i.e. the lute] has three or four strings doubled > in octaves they say that it has its strings "requintadas". > > > > > On a purely practical level it simply isn't necessary to string the > guitar in this way to avoid six-four chords. Invariably the upper octave > note on the fourth course is doubled on one of the higher courses in > 4-part chord and if players were worried about six-four chords they could > simply have omitted the fourth course altogether from chords which have > the 5th of the chord on the 4th course. In fact in the Leroy books this > is what often happens; the Morlaye books are less discriminating. Also > quite frequently the 4th course is to be tuned down a tone and this > eliminates the second inversion chords in some keys. It just isn't > necessary to go to such length. > > > > I think people should be more careful in the way that they evaluate their > information... > > > > Monica > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sean Smith" <[email protected]> > To: "lute" <[email protected]> > Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2015 1:13 AM > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Vihuela Stringing > > >> >> There may be reason to rethink the splitting of the 4th course in >> renaissance guitar technique. In the December 2012 LSA Quarterly, Michael >> Fink has strongly argued for playing the octave seperately in the lowest >> course of the renaissance guitar under cetain circumstances and for >> certain reasons. >> >> Apparently the Giovanni Smit chitarrina (1646) is a prime example. He >> reproduces the plate (6.5) from James Tyler's 2002 book and it is a >> significantly wider space within that course. >> >> He also reproduces the drawing (~1583-1587) by Jacques Cellier for >> presentation to Henry III of France. It requires a bit of photoshop magic >> to bring it out but it, too, has a wider split at the 4th course. >> >> The Commedia dell'Arte Guitar (ca. 1630?) in the print of actor Carlo >> Cantu ("Buffetto") printed as the frontispiece in Tyer's 1980 book also >> reveals course IV is split wider. >> >> He further shows the usefulness of playing the octave over the full >> course >> in a variety of examples. >> >> Sean >> >> >> >> >> On May 12, 2015, at 9:35 AM, Martin Shepherd wrote: >> >> Let's not get confused here - the "split course" technique consists of >> stopping only one string of a unison course so that the course produces >> two different notes. This was used by Capirola, Fuenllana, Bakfark, and >> possibly others. Playing the strings of an octave course separately is a >> completely different technique, not used (as far as I know) before Mouton >> in the late 17th century. >> >> Martin >> On 12/05/2015 18:25, Lex van Sante wrote: >>> Yes, for instance in Rechercar XIII one has to finger one string of the >>> fourth course and plucking both of them. >>> Op 12 mei 2015, om 18:18 heeft Monica Hall het volgende geschreven: >>> >>>> Does Capirola say that you should play one or other string of an octave >>>> strung course? >>>> Monica >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Wilke" >>>> <[email protected]> >>>> To: <[email protected]>; <[email protected]> >>>> Cc: <[email protected]> >>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 12, 2015 3:20 PM >>>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Vihuela Stringing >>>> >>>> >>>>> I suppose he meant Capirola. >>>>> Chris >>>>> [1]Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone >>>>> >>>>> At May 12, 2015, 8:27:26 AM, Monica Hall<'[email protected]'> >>>>> >>>>> "Fuenllana (1554) prescribes playing only one of the two strings in >>>>> the >>>>> course in some passages (as does Dalza - does he?)" >>>>> As far as I am aware this is not what Fuenllana does. What he does do >>>>> is >>>>> play two different notes on the same course - stopping one string of a >>>>> course and leaving the other unstopped. >>>>> >>>>> References >>>>> >>>>> 1. https://yho.com/footer0 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> To get on or off this list see list information at >>>>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>>> >>> >>> >> >> >> --- >> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >> http://www.avast.com >> >> >> >> >> > > > > >
