The answer may lie with the undocumented performers and performing groups. They improvised and different groups would have varied success among tastes of various patrons, situations and other qualifiers. Sometimes these techniques would surface in the printed materials, mss, accounts or iconography. Some of this survives as we have found. Getting back to the passages that your first illustrated, I'm wondering if that was a printed way of saying "this is how you can get the most sound/volume for these parts, should you need them." It's almost a strum but we know that never happened, right? Or suppose you were duetting with a cittern player who wanted a solo and you were called on to imitate his accompaniment? A lot of Adr./Phalese (1563 onwards) is performance-based and the all-inclusiveness suggests to me that many of the volumes were meant and advertised as "all-you-need" for one's lutering needs, the Adr of '84 and '92 being the epitomes of the concept. So I think there are examples of everything we need to understand the art of lute playing as Adr./Phalese saw it in his time. While they are complete in their way, it needs (or wants) the player to expand on it. If we played Adr. perfectly then we would be no different than the other player (or group) who plays Adr. perfectly. Then, as now, how would the player sell himself as better other than bringing something new to the table? I'm not suggesting we be anachronistic or bring in influence from places that would not have been influential at the time by any means but there are enough hints that the printed page is not sacrosanct. If we improvise there is the pitfall of those rightly saying "but that note/passage/instrument/combination wasn't played". On the other hand there is the stronger suggestion for lutenists that you must learn to improvise in their tradition (notes and instruments). We, in the 21st century must thread that needle. So, yes: that passage feels anachronistic but only because we --now-- can't see what possibilities they felt were available to them or the demands made of them. Sean
On Sun, Aug 11, 2019 at 10:25 AM Tristan von Neumann <[1][email protected]> wrote: Dear Joachim, yes I know, I have played all of those. But really I am interested in this kind of off-beat figuration that thrives on thirds. Dowland and maybe Huwet used those sometimes. Huwet was also from the Netherlands and I read Dowland befriended Huwet in Wolfenbüttel. I don't know who influenced whom, but maybe you know? On 11.08.19 18:36, Joachim Lüdtke wrote: > Dear Tristan, > > just in short (I am traveling and I don't have the sources at hand): You may not find exactly the same accord arpeggios (another anachronism, ;) ), but you will find similar things in different sets of variations on Conde Claros and other tunes and models. > > Best > > Joachim > > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Anachronistic playing style - Adriaenssen > Datum: 2019-08-10T12:55:41+0200 > Von: "Tristan von Neumann" <[2][email protected]> > An: "[3][email protected]" <[4][email protected]> > > Dear Joachim, > > > I used this term to give the idea for someone who can't just look at it, > you know this is erbsenzahlery :) > > And where is the same accuracy when trying to show me an example? ;-))) > > By Condes Claros you mean those of Valderrabano I guess? > > They are fancy, but not that fancy. I was looking for the exact figuration. > > Trying to explain the figuration by saying that variations need > variation (...duh!) doesn't really tell me anything. ;-) > > > > > > On 10.08.19 11:23, Joachim Lüdtke wrote: >> Dear Tristan, >> >> to be truely Alberti one would have to be a bass, ;), and it's anachronistic to connect such figurations to Alberti because the source precedes the time of Alberti (at least a bit). >> >> You will find similar things in Spanish variations of e.g. Conde claros. I think one could describe what we find there as a possible solution to the question how to write (or play or improvise) variations on a rather slow moving progression, if you have the scale runs already through. >> >> Best >> >> Joachim >> >> >> -----Original-Nachricht----- >> Betreff: [LUTE] Anachronistic playing style - Adriaenssen >> Datum: 2019-08-09T02:38:53+0200 >> Von: "Tristan von Neumann" <[5][email protected]> >> An: "[6][email protected]" <[7][email protected]> >> >> The "Passomeso in Basso" from Adriaenssen's Pratum Musicum 1584 features >> two variations in a very odd anachronistic/visionary style: >> >> It's basically the idea of "Alberti bass". >> >> (m. 114 - 119 and 225 - 238) >> >> [8]http://gerbode.net/sources/Adriaenssen/pratum_musicum_1584/pdf/61 _passomeso_in_basso.pdf >> >> >> This style seems to come from nowhere, and it has to my knowledge never >> been used afterwards. >> >> But I haven't looked at everything. >> >> >> Does anyone know any similar passage in that era? >> >> And: is there a recording of the piece? It is probably the most >> elaborate and creative Passamezzo ever. >> >> I use it as exercise - feels like training for a marathon. >> >> >> :) >> T* >> >> >> >> >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> [9]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> >> > >  > -- References 1. mailto:[email protected] 2. mailto:[email protected] 3. mailto:[email protected] 4. mailto:[email protected] 5. mailto:[email protected] 6. mailto:[email protected] 7. mailto:[email protected] 8. http://gerbode.net/sources/Adriaenssen/pratum_musicum_1584/pdf/61_passomeso_in_basso.pdf 9. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
