Realise the part in this work by Monteverdi without the use of 6 chords, as generally outlined in the rule of octave, and maybe appreciate the musical issues in this period and style of music.. As you say, the rule of the octave became part of the usual teaching apparatus later than 'the early XVII c' (although to be fair to M the 8th and 9th books are quite later works from around the mid century) but, of course, this does not mean it wasn't employed previously! In practice it generally produces a harmonisation in accord with the upper lines - using 53 chords on every step of the scale is not a general feature of this mid-baroque period. But each to their own...... MH
On Wednesday, 5 February 2020, 12:24:57 GMT, Jean-Marie Poirier <[email protected]> wrote: I agree with Konstantin on that! Monteverdi is half way between modality and tonality whereas Campion is completely tonal already... Best wishes, Jean-Marie > Le 5 févr. 2020 à 13:09, Konstantin Shchenikov <[1][email protected]> a écrit : > >  Mr. Hodgson, > You certainly have your right to disagree. Could you just satisfy my > curiosity by pointing me out the sources of the early XVII c, > describing the rules of octave? > All sources I read tells the opposite: no connection with steps of the > scale, such a thing has not even been mentioned. Only connection with > scale - natural or #/b intervals above the bass, depending not on the > step of the bass (as octave rule does), but depending on the next step > of the bass (bass movements). > I wouldn't overcomplicate mr. Probert's task, rules by Bianchiardi are > more simple than octave rule. And if one has a little idea about > Monteverdi's style, things cannot be clarified in a couple of words. > Here is Agazzari, for instance, page 7 of the PDF contains the good > example of realisation, it might be good for the beginning. Just play > and analyze. > [1][2]https://imslp.org/wiki/Del_Sonare_sopra'l_basso_con_tutti_li_stro men > ti_(Agazzari%2C_Agostino) > If one has time, the good idea come through the sources and get the > idea (or meet in person someone more experienced). If not, just don't > take so much care and do your best for now. As I told, I see no big > problem with d-minor tuning. > In Monteverdi's times continuo is more simple in terms of harmony, my > teachers (like Andrew Lawrence King) told me to avoid complicated > figuring most of the time. > 53 or 6 chords, 7/6 and 4/3 suspensions are good solution for most of > the time (and 5/4-5/3 without 6/4 - 5/3 for most of the cadances) and > let the voice do the rest - dissonances, clashes, dischords - if it's > occurs, are stylish. > F.T.Arnold in his book "the Art of Accompaniment from a thorough-bass" > showed a lot of examples. > And good luck with this beautiful music! > K. > ÃÃ, 5 Ãà µà ²Ã. 2020 à ³., 14:02 Martyn Hodgson > <[2][3][email protected]>: > > I can't agree with that assertion - it mostly does. But, in any > case, > I didn't wish to over-complicate the matter for Mr Probert > MH > On Wednesday, 5 February 2020, 10:53:14 GMT, Konstantin > Shchenikov > <[3][4][email protected]> wrote: > WARNING! Rule of the octave doesn't work at the Monteverdi's > times! > In fact, theory has changed. > In XVII c. bass movements does matter (on what interval and in > what > direction bass moves) without any correspondances with step of > the > scale. Check the rules in Bianchiardi "Breve regola per imparar a > suonare" for figuring (and preface to Viadana's "Cento concerti > ecclesiastici"). Arpeggiation is in use, check the prefaces in > Piccinini's "Libro Primo" and Kapsberger's "libro quattro di > chitarrone". > Some tips about little passages, passing notes and rhythmical > treatment > and several examples can also be found in Agazzari's "Del suonare > sopra'l basso" and Bianciardi mentioned above. > Turning to the instrument, you can use your high range, which > absents > on theorbo. But archlute has high range as well, and it's the > other > continuo instrument of XVII cent. And some archlutes could have > octave > basses. I, personally, see no problem with d-minor tuning, but > the > sound is different from archlutes, so the whole idea must be > close, but > not the same. > Good luck! > ÃÃ, 5 Ãà µà ²Ã. 2020 à ³. à ² 13:20, Martyn Hodgson > <[1][4][5][email protected]>: > Howard's advice is very sound. > In practice, go through the score and figure up the bass > part > using the > 'rule of the octave'; and generally employ 6 chords where > the > bass is > sharpened; and also use the occasional suspension (eg 7 - > 6 or > 4-3) to > taste (though an occasional passing clash with the upper > lines is > perfectly acceptable in this repertoire). > Always checking, of course, with the vocal lines; so that > for > example, > bars 22-23 will be generally figured [ 6(3) - 7/5 ] > [(5)4 - # > ]. > Whether you play a major chord on bar 24 or a bare fifth is, > perhaps, > also a matter of taste. > Insert the usual cadential formula as necessary, for > example, a 4 > - 3 > in bar 27 > Then simply play the chords (three parts is probably all > you'll > need) > Here's a clean version to work on > [1][2][5][6]http://www3.cpdl.org/wiki/images/8/82/Mont-aes.pdf > MH >> On Wednesday, 5 February 2020, 07:22:51 GMT, howard posner >> <[3][6][7][email protected]> wrote: >> On Feb 4, 2020, at 6:31 PM, Mark Probert > <[2][4][7][8][email protected]> > wrote: >> >> Suppose I given a piece of early >> Baroque music, take Monteverdi's duet "Ardo e scoprir"[1] > by > way of >> specific example, and I want to create a passable continuo > line > to >> support the singers (potentially with me singing one of > lines). >> >> I come armed with my lute, an a-historic Dm 13c lute, a > certain > amount >> of theory, but no real clue apart from "play the indicated > root" and >> "arpeggiate the triads". > Neither of those is necessarily a good idea, especially if > by > "play the > indicated root" you mean assuming the bass note is the root > of > the > chord. But if you know the basic rules (you're familiar with > the > rule > of the octave?) you can get most of the harmonies right > without > too > much trouble. >> Given this is akin to asking "how do you realize a bass," > can > anyone >> point me in the direction of how you start such a journey > on a > lute? > If you want to learn how to do it, I'd start with Nigel > North's > "Continuo Playing on the Lute, Archlute and Theorbo." If you > just > want > to slap something together for a specific piece, you might > get a > realized version (which will probably be intended for piano) > and > alter > it to suit your needs. >> And if the theory is much different using a Dm lute rather > than > theorbo? > The theory doesn't change. A major chord is a major chord > and a > suspension is a suspension. You'll have higher notes than a > theorbo > has, but less volume and sustain. Sometimes this means > playing a > busier > accompaniment to keep the sound going (good luck with that > if > you're > singing at the same time). > To get on or off this list see list information at > > [3][5][8][9]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > -- > References > 1. [6][9][10]http://www3.cpdl.org/wiki/images/8/82/Mont-aes.pdf > 2. mailto:[7][10][11][email protected] > 3. > [8][11][12]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > -- > References > 1. mailto:[12][13][email protected] > 2. [13][14]http://www3.cpdl.org/wiki/images/8/82/Mont-aes.pdf > 3. mailto:[14][15][email protected] > 4. mailto:[15][16][email protected] > 5. [16][17]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > 6. [17][18]http://www3.cpdl.org/wiki/images/8/82/Mont-aes.pdf > 7. mailto:[18][19][email protected] > 8. [19][20]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > -- > > References > > 1. [21]https://imslp.org/wiki/Del_Sonare_sopra'l_basso_con_tutti_li_strome nti_(Agazzari,_Agostino) > 2. mailto:[22][email protected] > 3. mailto:[23][email protected] > 4. mailto:[24][email protected] > 5. [25]http://www3.cpdl.org/wiki/images/8/82/Mont-aes.pdf > 6. mailto:[26][email protected] > 7. mailto:[27][email protected] > 8. [28]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > 9. [29]http://www3.cpdl.org/wiki/images/8/82/Mont-aes.pdf > 10. mailto:[30][email protected] > 11. [31]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > 12. mailto:[32][email protected] > 13. [33]http://www3.cpdl.org/wiki/images/8/82/Mont-aes.pdf > 14. mailto:[34][email protected] > 15. mailto:[35][email protected] > 16. [36]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > 17. [37]http://www3.cpdl.org/wiki/images/8/82/Mont-aes.pdf > 18. mailto:[38][email protected] > 19. [39]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > -- References 1. mailto:[email protected] 2. https://imslp.org/wiki/Del_Sonare_sopra'l_basso_con_tutti_li_stromen 3. mailto:[email protected] 4. mailto:[email protected] 5. mailto:[email protected] 6. http://www3.cpdl.org/wiki/images/8/82/Mont-aes.pdf 7. mailto:[email protected] 8. mailto:[email protected] 9. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 10. http://www3.cpdl.org/wiki/images/8/82/Mont-aes.pdf 11. mailto:[email protected] 12. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 13. mailto:[email protected] 14. http://www3.cpdl.org/wiki/images/8/82/Mont-aes.pdf 15. mailto:[email protected] 16. mailto:[email protected] 17. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 18. http://www3.cpdl.org/wiki/images/8/82/Mont-aes.pdf 19. mailto:[email protected] 20. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 21. https://imslp.org/wiki/Del_Sonare_sopra'l_basso_con_tutti_li_stromenti_ 22. mailto:[email protected] 23. mailto:[email protected] 24. mailto:[email protected] 25. http://www3.cpdl.org/wiki/images/8/82/Mont-aes.pdf 26. mailto:[email protected] 27. mailto:[email protected] 28. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 29. http://www3.cpdl.org/wiki/images/8/82/Mont-aes.pdf 30. mailto:[email protected] 31. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 32. mailto:[email protected] 33. http://www3.cpdl.org/wiki/images/8/82/Mont-aes.pdf 34. mailto:[email protected] 35. mailto:[email protected] 36. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 37. http://www3.cpdl.org/wiki/images/8/82/Mont-aes.pdf 38. mailto:[email protected] 39. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
