First all many thanks to Wayne for his great work in these decades! I totally agree about Facebook. It has nothing to do with the lute list as we know it.
What about just a simple Google discussion group? It is very easy to maintain, it is free and can keep all the past messages. Actually, it can be configured as a moderated (if needed) mailing list, but in addition it offers a web interface to browse conversations and old messages. Francesco > -----Messaggio originale----- > Da: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu <lute-arc@new-old- > mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> Per conto di Martyn Hodgson > Inviato: venerdì 4 settembre 2020 14:14 > A: LSA Editor <lsaq.edi...@gmail.com>; LSA President > <lutesocietyamericapresid...@gmail.com>; lutelist Net > <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>; Ron Andrico <praelu...@hotmail.com> > Oggetto: [LUTE] Re: My web site > > Well said Ron, > The lutelist format and its arrangement is clearly much more suited > for the proper and serious, but still enjoyable, exchange of views and > for sharing information. It may be seen by some as 'old fashioned' > (and > I'm not sure what this really means in this context anyway) but is this > really a valid judgement for what it aims to do. The use of email etc > allows > slightly more considered communications than the need for adulation. > It would be a backward step to employ a format which focuses primarily > on social media, advertising and the number of hits, 'likes' and such > like....... > MH > > On Friday, 4 September 2020, 13:02:17 BST, Ron Andrico > <praelu...@hotmail.com> wrote: > I'm guessing that it was an oversight to copy the entire lutelist > with > this message thread, which shares some awkward ideas (and language). > Nevertheless, the personalities involved need to understand that > there > abides an intelligent segment of participants on the lutelist who > will > never contribute on the Faceb**k platform. That particular platform > is > the opposite of how Wayne laid out and maintained the lutelist. The > format (which I call MyFace because participants seem to care very > little about what others post) is sufficient for trivia and vanity > postings, but for musicians who want to promote themselves, Faceb**k > actually suppresses distribution of any post that emits even a whiff > of > commercial potential. The platform is focused on two primary > objectives: 1) encouraging posters to reveal more information than > they > should, 2) monetizing said information in every and any way possible. > Not the same as the lutelist, which, thanks to Wayne, has steadfastly > embodied the outmoded egalitarian aspects of the internet. It is now > a > brave new world populated by the greedy and deceptive masquerading as > old school free-culture types. Good luck with following up on your > ideas, but don't be surprised if a large number of people choose to > not > participate in your scheme. > RA > From: [1]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu > <[2]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> on behalf of LSA Editor > <[3]lsaq.edi...@gmail.com> > Sent: Thursday, September 3, 2020 9:56 PM > To: LSA President <[4]lutesocietyamericapresid...@gmail.com>; > lutelist Net > <[5]Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> > Subject: [LUTE] Re: My web site > Hi Cathy, > I am including Sean about your questions on the lutelist versus > FB. > Sean looks both them and Nig even more than I do, so can give you > a > better answer. Here are my sanswers: > The lutelist is old-fashioned and it's biggest virtue is that we > have > access to people like Art Ness and Martin Shepherd to answer > questions. It's vibe is a bit more toward the serious lute > player, > but > the people are mostly patient with newbies with questions. It is > not > the place for promoting you CD or next concert. > FB IS the place to promote anything and everything and I think > Larry > spends time getting rid of the messages that off topic. FB has a > younger vibe - or maybe it had a younger vibe when it started. I > hear > it has been taken over by groups like the LSA and some musicians > use > it > instead of a web page. FB can have pictures and mostly postings > are > very short. > I don't think the lutelist needs much curating, at least not > right > now. > We've had a couple of differences of opinion in the past, but > nothing > recently. Another big benefit for me is that people access the > lutelist using their own emails and I can keep the email address > for > future contacts. The people there are a big source of additions > to > my > lists of prospective LSA members. I can be the moderator for the > lutelist until it's up and running and we find a good person to > take > the job over. We don't have the problem with the LL of every tom, > dick > and harry wanting to join it - it's more for the cognisenti. > David > Smith might be a good moderator - he's been on the LL for years. > When I had an orpharion for sale on Wayne's list (and it wasn't > selling) Wayne checked in with me to see if it was still for sale > after > about a year. This seems to me to be a small job that only needs > looking at every few months. I think the other part of job is > posting > new instruments for sale. > We would also need to make sure people know where to find both > the > LL > and LFS lists - a few CC blitzes?, since people are used to going > to > his Dartmouth site and it will be linked on places like the ELS > site. > Nancy > I agree. Now that we are back on solid footing â Whew! We should > not > piss off people like Wayne after all he has done. We should > probably > not piss of anyone! â we can proceed. > What happens on the lute list that doesn't happen on Facebook or > on > Danny Shoskes' site? Just curious. > What kind of curating does ithe lute list need to work well and > be a > benefit? There is little point in setting one up if we don't have > someone dedicated to keeping it operating properly, not only from > the > tech standpoint, but just as important, to keep nasty people off. > The > same question applies to the Lutes for sale listings. At the very > least > we need someone ready to take posts down when the seller has > completed > the transaction. > I might see if Chris Henriksen can tell me if Bill Good would be > good > for this kind of thing. He did not want to be a custodian, but > maybe > this is more to his liking. Maybe Lyn Abissi will know someone. > These > two were making great strides toward setting up a local chapter > here > in > Boston, but the pandemic knocked that out, as far as I know. > At the next Board meeting, hopefully this fall, maybe some of our > new > Board members will either step up or know someone who could be > asked. > Feeling relieved that we are on a better track with this. > Cathy > Catherine Liddell > President/Chairman of the Board > [uc?id9TJhsqVKmGMNWhuR19WWXJYQU0&export=download] > [1]www.lutesocietyofamerica.org > On Sep 3, 2020, at 12:33 PM, LSA Editor > <[2][6]lsaq.edi...@gmail.com> > wrote: > I think we should go ahead and get a new lutelist and For Sale > list > going so that we can harvest as many people as possible from the > old > lists ASAP - before they go away. Wayne has not mentioned his > archive > of all the old discussions on the lutelist and I am pretty sure > from > the note below he will not be giving them to us or anyone else. > I > think people do use that, but if he wants to keep it for himself, > that's fine. How about if I go ahead and start copying the text > and > contacts from the For Sale list? Jerry says he can set up a new > lute > list very quickly. > I think both the lutelist and the For Sale list have been around > for > so > long that there will be dead links for years bouncing toward > Wayne's > old computers. I am less interested in the pictures because David > van > Edwards has done a lot with pictures for the ELS. I have never > looked > at his treatises - again it is less interesting. > Nancy > HI Cathy > Thanks for your thoughtful and carefully worded message. I guess > I > was a little careless in the wording of my original message. My > intention was that someone, (perhaps the LSA), could start their > own > list, using their own software and computers, and announce it on > my > list when they were set up. Maybe that was what you folks meant, > but I > got the impression that my input was required, and I am retiring > and > no > longer want to be involved in doing sysadmin work. The same goes > for > the "lutes for sale" list. I would like to disconnect and turn > off > my > list completely and not leave anything hanging. In this case I > would > not want any advertisements left on another web site, where the > advertisers might not know how to take their ad down. To be > blunt, > I > would not want people to say "Wayne had a great for sale site but > something changed and now he isn't doing such a great job > anymore". > It > would be great to the LSA to start its own great "lutes for sale" > site. > My pages of lute pictures arranged by date were intended to show > people how the hand positions changed of the ages, but because I > didn't > explicitly say that I don't think anyone got the message. Oh > well. > I > am sure that better pictures are available on the web now. The > set > of > treatises on hand position is worth saving, most everything else > exists > to answer questions that people would email to me. > I am backing up my web sites, so nothing will be lost, and I may > start > another web site in the future. But right now I am retiring, and > there > are a lot of pieces to sort out and put away, and I apologize if > that > makes me a little irritable! > Wayne > On Thu, Sep 3, 2020 at 8:29 AM LSA President > <[3][7]lutesocietyamericapresid...@gmail.com> wrote: > Dear Wayne, > The value you have added, the contribution you have made to the > lute > world with all of the work you have put into the lute list, the > links > to lute art, the lutes for sale and the TAB program over the > years > is > immeasurable. I suspect thousands have taken advantage of what > you > have > offered. Because of that, when you put out the announcement on > the > lute > list that you'd be retiring and the server would be shut down in > a > month's time, a certain tidal wave of panic developed. "What will > happen to the lute list?" "How will we buy and sell our > instruments?" > etc. Our minds quickly rushed to come up with a way to save all > this > material. It all snowballed from there. This is a testimony to > how > valuable what you have been offereing is seen to be. > I will confess that I was affected by the wording at the end of > your > announcement, "If someone wants to take up running the lute mail > listâ¦" > because it seemed to open the door to run-away thinking on the > part > of > myself, and other LSA folk, some of whom have contacted you > directly, > assuming, incorrectly it's now clear, that you were looking for a > home > for at least some parts of your work. > I apologize profusely for this reaction on our part. We, I, > should > have > contacted you directly to ask what you were planning, and to > offer > to > be helpful in some way, rather than assume that of course you > would > want your work to carry on. We have come off as pushy vultures, > and > that is ugly and unbecoming of a society that tries to engender > good > will and cooperation. We fail, sometimes, as we have here, but we > do > try. > It does feel sad to me to read "I am retiring, and my projects > will > retire with me." Of course that's your choice to make. Do I > understand > correctly then, that you would have no objection if we followed > the > leads in your email here, assuming we find the personnel to do > so? > This > would involve, as you describe: > 1) setting up a lute list on our site, and announcing on your > site > that > people can migrate over to the one we set up. > 2) contacting those with instruments to sell, asking them if they > want > to continue on our site. > It is clear to us that it will make no sense to undertake either > of > these efforts if we do not have someone to curate them properly. > I ask your forgiveness for our having come across like vultures. > We > were trying to help, and did so badly. > All best wishes faithful lute lover! > Cathy > Catherine Liddell > President/Chairman of the Board > [uc?id9TJhsqVKmGMNWhuR19WWXJYQU0&export=download] > [4]www.lutesocietyofamerica.org > On Sep 2, 2020, at 11:48 AM, Wayne Cripps > <[5][8]w...@cs.dartmouth.edu> > wrote: > Dear Everyone > I am a bit bothered by what seems to me to be a "grab everything" > approach to > my various lute related web projects on your parts. I am retiring, > and > my proje > cts will retire with me. The next person's job is to take over with > their own p > roject, not to copy or clone mine. My projects are mine, they are > not > LSA proje > cts, even if I have been a member of the LSA in the past. > - the lute mail list runs on propriatary software. If you would like > to start a > nd maintain a lute mail list there are many excellent packages out > there. [6]gr > oups.io seems to be a good one. Once you have it set up you can > announce it on > my list. > - Lutes For Sale - because people who advertise on my lutes for sale > page expose > themselves to quite a bit of spam, it is important that they can > contact someon > e (me) to have their information removed as soon as possible. For > this > reason i > t would not be appropriate for you to copy the existing list. If you > want to st > art your own list you could write to the advertisers on my list and > ask > them if > they would like to advertise on your list. Then they will have a > connection wit > h you when it comes time to remove their posting. > - Lute Tablature - Sarge Gerbode has a very complete site for > Renaissance music > in tablature, which certainly has all of the same music that my site > has, given > that he has scraped my site. If I find a demand for my tablature I > may > start an > other site somewhere. You may have technical issues copying the > tablature witho > ut some effort. > - Web pages - the fact is that anyone can copy anything off the web, > but I do fe > el that my pages are my creation and work, and if someone simply > clones > it they > are not respecting that. (I must say here that Caroline Usher > contributed quite > a lot in the early days.) Besides, the wayback machine has it all. > The LSA di > d once have a web site on my computer, but it was their site, and my > site is my > site. > My feeling is also that in efforts like this, people are eager to > jump > in to th > e project, but they don't tend to stick around. The lutes for sale > project need > s constant maintenance and the mail list requires supervision. > Sincerely, > Wayne > -- > Nancy Carlin > Administrator & LSA Quarterly General Editor > Lute Society of America > PO Box 6499 > Concord, CA 94524 > 925-686-5800 > -- > Nancy Carlin > Administrator & LSA Quarterly General Editor > Lute Society of America > PO Box 6499 > Concord, CA 94524 > 925-686-5800 > -- > References > 1. [1][9]http://www.lutesocietyofamerica.org/ > 2. [2]mailto:[10]lsaq.edi...@gmail.com > 3. [3]mailto:[11]lutesocietyamericapresid...@gmail.com > 4. [4][12]http://www.lutesocietyofamerica.org/ > 5. [5]mailto:[13]w...@cs.dartmouth.edu > 6. [6][14]http://groups.io/ > To get on or off this list see list information at > [7][15]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > Virus-free. [8]www.avast.com > -- > References > Visible links: > 1. [16]http://www.lutesocietyofamerica.org/ > 2. mailto:[17]lsaq.edi...@gmail.com > 3. mailto:[18]lutesocietyamericapresid...@gmail.com > 4. [19]http://www.lutesocietyofamerica.org/ > 5. mailto:[20]w...@cs.dartmouth.edu > 6. [21]http://groups.io/ > 7. [22]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > 8. > [23]https://www.avast.com/sig- > email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&ut > m_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=link > Hidden links: > 10. > [24]https://www.avast.com/sig- > email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&ut > m_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=icon > 11. > file://localhost/net/ifs-users/lute-arc/L1617112-5620TMP.html#DAB4FAD8- > 2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2 > > -- > > References > > 1. mailto:lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu > 2. mailto:lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu > 3. mailto:lsaq.edi...@gmail.com > 4. mailto:lutesocietyamericapresid...@gmail.com > 5. mailto:Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > 6. mailto:lsaq.edi...@gmail.com > 7. mailto:lutesocietyamericapresid...@gmail.com > 8. mailto:w...@cs.dartmouth.edu > 9. http://www.lutesocietyofamerica.org/ > 10. mailto:lsaq.edi...@gmail.com > 11. mailto:lutesocietyamericapresid...@gmail.com > 12. http://www.lutesocietyofamerica.org/ > 13. mailto:w...@cs.dartmouth.edu > 14. http://groups.io/ > 15. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > 16. http://www.lutesocietyofamerica.org/ > 17. mailto:lsaq.edi...@gmail.com > 18. mailto:lutesocietyamericapresid...@gmail.com > 19. http://www.lutesocietyofamerica.org/ > 20. mailto:w...@cs.dartmouth.edu > 21. http://groups.io/ > 22. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > 23. https://www.avast.com/sig- > email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig- > email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=link > 24. https://www.avast.com/sig- > email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig- > email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=icon
