First all many thanks to Wayne for his great work in these decades!
I totally agree about Facebook. It has nothing to do with the lute list as
we know it.
What about just a simple Google discussion group? It is very easy to
maintain, it is free and can keep all the past messages. Actually, it can be
configured as a moderated (if needed) mailing list, but in addition it
offers a web interface to browse conversations and old messages.
Francesco
-----Messaggio originale-----
Da: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu <lute-arc@new-old-
mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> Per conto di Martyn Hodgson
Inviato: venerdì 4 settembre 2020 14:14
A: LSA Editor <lsaq.edi...@gmail.com>; LSA President
<lutesocietyamericapresid...@gmail.com>; lutelist Net
<lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>; Ron Andrico <praelu...@hotmail.com>
Oggetto: [LUTE] Re: My web site
Well said Ron,
The lutelist format and its arrangement is clearly much more suited
> for the proper and serious, but still enjoyable, exchange of views and
for sharing information. It may be seen by some as 'old fashioned'
(and
I'm not sure what this really means in this context anyway) but is this
really a valid judgement for what it aims to do. The use of email etc
allows
slightly more considered communications than the need for adulation.
It would be a backward step to employ a format which focuses primarily
on social media, advertising and the number of hits, 'likes' and such
like.......
MH
On Friday, 4 September 2020, 13:02:17 BST, Ron Andrico
<praelu...@hotmail.com> wrote:
I'm guessing that it was an oversight to copy the entire lutelist
with
this message thread, which shares some awkward ideas (and language).
Nevertheless, the personalities involved need to understand that
there
abides an intelligent segment of participants on the lutelist who
will
never contribute on the Faceb**k platform. That particular platform
is
the opposite of how Wayne laid out and maintained the lutelist. The
format (which I call MyFace because participants seem to care very
little about what others post) is sufficient for trivia and vanity
postings, but for musicians who want to promote themselves, Faceb**k
actually suppresses distribution of any post that emits even a whiff
of
commercial potential. The platform is focused on two primary
objectives: 1) encouraging posters to reveal more information than
they
should, 2) monetizing said information in every and any way possible.
Not the same as the lutelist, which, thanks to Wayne, has steadfastly
embodied the outmoded egalitarian aspects of the internet. It is now
a
brave new world populated by the greedy and deceptive masquerading as
old school free-culture types. Good luck with following up on your
ideas, but don't be surprised if a large number of people choose to
not
participate in your scheme.
RA
From: [1]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
<[2]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> on behalf of LSA Editor
<[3]lsaq.edi...@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 3, 2020 9:56 PM
To: LSA President <[4]lutesocietyamericapresid...@gmail.com>;
lutelist Net
<[5]Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Subject: [LUTE] Re: My web site
Hi Cathy,
I am including Sean about your questions on the lutelist versus
FB.
Sean looks both them and Nig even more than I do, so can give you
> a
better answer. Here are my sanswers:
The lutelist is old-fashioned and it's biggest virtue is that we
have
access to people like Art Ness and Martin Shepherd to answer
questions. It's vibe is a bit more toward the serious lute
player,
but
the people are mostly patient with newbies with questions. It is
not
the place for promoting you CD or next concert.
FB IS the place to promote anything and everything and I think
Larry
spends time getting rid of the messages that off topic. FB has a
younger vibe - or maybe it had a younger vibe when it started. I
hear
it has been taken over by groups like the LSA and some musicians
use
it
instead of a web page. FB can have pictures and mostly postings
are
very short.
I don't think the lutelist needs much curating, at least not
right
now.
We've had a couple of differences of opinion in the past, but
nothing
recently. Another big benefit for me is that people access the
lutelist using their own emails and I can keep the email address
for
future contacts. The people there are a big source of additions
to
my
lists of prospective LSA members. I can be the moderator for the
> lutelist until it's up and running and we find a good person to
take
the job over. We don't have the problem with the LL of every tom,
dick
and harry wanting to join it - it's more for the cognisenti.
David
Smith might be a good moderator - he's been on the LL for years.
When I had an orpharion for sale on Wayne's list (and it wasn't
selling) Wayne checked in with me to see if it was still for sale
after
about a year. This seems to me to be a small job that only needs
looking at every few months. I think the other part of job is
posting
new instruments for sale.
We would also need to make sure people know where to find both
the
LL
and LFS lists - a few CC blitzes?, since people are used to going
to
his Dartmouth site and it will be linked on places like the ELS
site.
Nancy
I agree. Now that we are back on solid footing â Whew! We should
not
piss off people like Wayne after all he has done. We should
probably
not piss of anyone! â we can proceed.
What happens on the lute list that doesn't happen on Facebook or
on
Danny Shoskes' site? Just curious.
What kind of curating does ithe lute list need to work well and
be a
benefit? There is little point in setting one up if we don't have
someone dedicated to keeping it operating properly, not only from
the
tech standpoint, but just as important, to keep nasty people off.
The
same question applies to the Lutes for sale listings. At the very
least
we need someone ready to take posts down when the seller has
completed
the transaction.
I might see if Chris Henriksen can tell me if Bill Good would be
good
for this kind of thing. He did not want to be a custodian, but
maybe
this is more to his liking. Maybe Lyn Abissi will know someone.
These
two were making great strides toward setting up a local chapter
here
in
Boston, but the pandemic knocked that out, as far as I know.
At the next Board meeting, hopefully this fall, maybe some of our
new
Board members will either step up or know someone who could be
asked.
Feeling relieved that we are on a better track with this.
Cathy
Catherine Liddell
President/Chairman of the Board
[uc?id9TJhsqVKmGMNWhuR19WWXJYQU0&export=download]
> [1]www.lutesocietyofamerica.org
On Sep 3, 2020, at 12:33 PM, LSA Editor
<[2][6]lsaq.edi...@gmail.com>
wrote:
I think we should go ahead and get a new lutelist and For Sale
list
going so that we can harvest as many people as possible from the
old
lists ASAP - before they go away. Wayne has not mentioned his
archive
of all the old discussions on the lutelist and I am pretty sure
from
the note below he will not be giving them to us or anyone else.
I
think people do use that, but if he wants to keep it for himself,
that's fine. How about if I go ahead and start copying the text
and
contacts from the For Sale list? Jerry says he can set up a new
lute
list very quickly.
I think both the lutelist and the For Sale list have been around
for
so
long that there will be dead links for years bouncing toward
Wayne's
old computers. I am less interested in the pictures because David
van
Edwards has done a lot with pictures for the ELS. I have never
looked
at his treatises - again it is less interesting.
Nancy
HI Cathy
Thanks for your thoughtful and carefully worded message. I guess
I
was a little careless in the wording of my original message. My
> intention was that someone, (perhaps the LSA), could start their
own
list, using their own software and computers, and announce it on
my
list when they were set up. Maybe that was what you folks meant,
but I
got the impression that my input was required, and I am retiring
and
no
longer want to be involved in doing sysadmin work. The same goes
for
the "lutes for sale" list. I would like to disconnect and turn
off
my
list completely and not leave anything hanging. In this case I
would
not want any advertisements left on another web site, where the
advertisers might not know how to take their ad down. To be
blunt,
I
would not want people to say "Wayne had a great for sale site but
something changed and now he isn't doing such a great job
anymore".
It
would be great to the LSA to start its own great "lutes for sale"
site.
My pages of lute pictures arranged by date were intended to show
people how the hand positions changed of the ages, but because I
didn't
explicitly say that I don't think anyone got the message. Oh
well.
I
am sure that better pictures are available on the web now. The
set
of
treatises on hand position is worth saving, most everything else
exists
to answer questions that people would email to me.
I am backing up my web sites, so nothing will be lost, and I may
start
another web site in the future. But right now I am retiring, and
there
are a lot of pieces to sort out and put away, and I apologize if
that
makes me a little irritable!
Wayne
On Thu, Sep 3, 2020 at 8:29 AM LSA President
<[3][7]lutesocietyamericapresid...@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear Wayne,
The value you have added, the contribution you have made to the
lute
world with all of the work you have put into the lute list, the
links
to lute art, the lutes for sale and the TAB program over the
years
is
immeasurable. I suspect thousands have taken advantage of what
you
have
offered. Because of that, when you put out the announcement on
the
lute
list that you'd be retiring and the server would be shut down in
a
month's time, a certain tidal wave of panic developed. "What will
> happen to the lute list?" "How will we buy and sell our
instruments?"
etc. Our minds quickly rushed to come up with a way to save all
this
material. It all snowballed from there. This is a testimony to
how
valuable what you have been offereing is seen to be.
I will confess that I was affected by the wording at the end of
your
announcement, "If someone wants to take up running the lute mail
listâ¦"
because it seemed to open the door to run-away thinking on the
part
of
myself, and other LSA folk, some of whom have contacted you
directly,
assuming, incorrectly it's now clear, that you were looking for a
home
for at least some parts of your work.
I apologize profusely for this reaction on our part. We, I,
should
have
contacted you directly to ask what you were planning, and to
offer
to
be helpful in some way, rather than assume that of course you
would
want your work to carry on. We have come off as pushy vultures,
and
that is ugly and unbecoming of a society that tries to engender
good
will and cooperation. We fail, sometimes, as we have here, but we
do
try.
It does feel sad to me to read "I am retiring, and my projects
will
retire with me." Of course that's your choice to make. Do I
> understand
correctly then, that you would have no objection if we followed
the
leads in your email here, assuming we find the personnel to do
so?
This
would involve, as you describe:
1) setting up a lute list on our site, and announcing on your
site
that
people can migrate over to the one we set up.
2) contacting those with instruments to sell, asking them if they
want
to continue on our site.
It is clear to us that it will make no sense to undertake either
of
these efforts if we do not have someone to curate them properly.
I ask your forgiveness for our having come across like vultures.
We
were trying to help, and did so badly.
All best wishes faithful lute lover!
Cathy
Catherine Liddell
President/Chairman of the Board
[uc?id9TJhsqVKmGMNWhuR19WWXJYQU0&export=download]
[4]www.lutesocietyofamerica.org
On Sep 2, 2020, at 11:48 AM, Wayne Cripps
<[5][8]w...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
wrote:
Dear Everyone
I am a bit bothered by what seems to me to be a "grab everything"
approach to
my various lute related web projects on your parts. I am retiring,
and
my proje
cts will retire with me. The next person's job is to take over with
their own p
roject, not to copy or clone mine. My projects are mine, they are
not
LSA proje
cts, even if I have been a member of the LSA in the past.
- the lute mail list runs on propriatary software. If you would like
to start a
nd maintain a lute mail list there are many excellent packages out
there. [6]gr
oups.io seems to be a good one. Once you have it set up you can
announce it on
my list.
- Lutes For Sale - because people who advertise on my lutes for sale
page expose
themselves to quite a bit of spam, it is important that they can
contact someon
e (me) to have their information removed as soon as possible. For
this
reason i
t would not be appropriate for you to copy the existing list. If you
want to st
art your own list you could write to the advertisers on my list and
ask
them if
they would like to advertise on your list. Then they will have a
connection wit
h you when it comes time to remove their posting.
- Lute Tablature - Sarge Gerbode has a very complete site for
> Renaissance music
in tablature, which certainly has all of the same music that my site
has, given
that he has scraped my site. If I find a demand for my tablature I
may
start an
other site somewhere. You may have technical issues copying the
tablature witho
ut some effort.
- Web pages - the fact is that anyone can copy anything off the web,
but I do fe
el that my pages are my creation and work, and if someone simply
clones
it they
are not respecting that. (I must say here that Caroline Usher
contributed quite
a lot in the early days.) Besides, the wayback machine has it all.
The LSA di
d once have a web site on my computer, but it was their site, and my
site is my
site.
My feeling is also that in efforts like this, people are eager to
jump
in to th
e project, but they don't tend to stick around. The lutes for sale
project need
s constant maintenance and the mail list requires supervision.
Sincerely,
Wayne
--
Nancy Carlin
Administrator & LSA Quarterly General Editor
Lute Society of America
PO Box 6499
Concord, CA 94524
925-686-5800
--
Nancy Carlin
Administrator & LSA Quarterly General Editor
Lute Society of America
PO Box 6499
Concord, CA 94524
> 925-686-5800
--
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