As much as I share the privacy concerns with google I wonder if that is of a major concern for our discussion about lute music. Fronimo uses google groups and it never occurred to me that google hijacked posts for advertisement purposes. Follow and log users, yes, but then again...
‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ On Friday, September 4, 2020 2:13 PM, Martyn Hodgson <hodgsonmar...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote: > Well said Ron, > The lutelist format and its arrangement is clearly much more suited > for the proper and serious, but still enjoyable, exchange of views and > for sharing information. It may be seen by some as 'old fashioned' > (and > I'm not sure what this really means in this context anyway) but is this > really a valid judgement for what it aims to do. The use of email etc > allows > slightly more considered communications than the need for adulation. > It would be a backward step to employ a format which focuses primarily > on social media, advertising and the number of hits, 'likes' and such > like....... > MH > > On Friday, 4 September 2020, 13:02:17 BST, Ron Andrico > praelu...@hotmail.com wrote: > > I'm guessing that it was an oversight to copy the entire lutelist > > > with > this message thread, which shares some awkward ideas (and language). > Nevertheless, the personalities involved need to understand that > there > abides an intelligent segment of participants on the lutelist who > will > never contribute on the Facebk platform. That particular platform > is > the opposite of how Wayne laid out and maintained the lutelist. The > format (which I call MyFace because participants seem to care very > little about what others post) is sufficient for trivia and vanity > postings, but for musicians who want to promote themselves, Facebkactually > suppresses distribution of any post that emits even a whiff > of > commercial potential. The platform is focused on two primary > objectives: 1) encouraging posters to reveal more information than > they > should, 2) monetizing said information in every and any way possible. > Not the same as the lutelist, which, thanks to Wayne, has steadfastly > embodied the outmoded egalitarian aspects of the internet. It is now > a > brave new world populated by the greedy and deceptive masquerading as > old school free-culture types. Good luck with following up on your > ideas, but don't be surprised if a large number of people choose to > not > participate in your scheme. > RA > From: [1]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu > <[2]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> on behalf of LSA Editor > > <[3]lsaq.edi...@gmail.com> > > Sent: Thursday, September 3, 2020 9:56 PM > To: LSA President <[4]lutesocietyamericapresid...@gmail.com>; > > > lutelist Net > <[5]Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> > > Subject: [LUTE] Re: My web site > Hi Cathy, > I am including Sean about your questions on the lutelist versus > > > FB. > Sean looks both them and Nig even more than I do, so can give you > a > better answer. Here are my sanswers: > The lutelist is old-fashioned and it's biggest virtue is that we > have > access to people like Art Ness and Martin Shepherd to answer > questions. It's vibe is a bit more toward the serious lute > player, > but > the people are mostly patient with newbies with questions. It is > not > the place for promoting you CD or next concert. > FB IS the place to promote anything and everything and I think > Larry > spends time getting rid of the messages that off topic. FB has a > younger vibe - or maybe it had a younger vibe when it started. I > hear > it has been taken over by groups like the LSA and some musicians > use > it > instead of a web page. FB can have pictures and mostly postings > are > very short. > I don't think the lutelist needs much curating, at least not > right > now. > We've had a couple of differences of opinion in the past, but > nothing > recently. Another big benefit for me is that people access the > lutelist using their own emails and I can keep the email address > for > future contacts. The people there are a big source of additions > to > my > lists of prospective LSA members. I can be the moderator for the > lutelist until it's up and running and we find a good person to > take > the job over. We don't have the problem with the LL of every tom, > dick > and harry wanting to join it - it's more for the cognisenti. > David > Smith might be a good moderator - he's been on the LL for years. > When I had an orpharion for sale on Wayne's list (and it wasn't > selling) Wayne checked in with me to see if it was still for sale > after > about a year. This seems to me to be a small job that only needs > looking at every few months. I think the other part of job is > posting > new instruments for sale. > We would also need to make sure people know where to find both > the > LL > and LFS lists - a few CC blitzes?, since people are used to going > to > his Dartmouth site and it will be linked on places like the ELS > site. > Nancy > I agree. Now that we are back on solid footing â Whew! We should > not > piss off people like Wayne after all he has done. We should > probably > not piss of anyone! â we can proceed. > What happens on the lute list that doesn't happen on Facebook or > on > Danny Shoskes' site? Just curious. > What kind of curating does ithe lute list need to work well and > be a > benefit? There is little point in setting one up if we don't have > someone dedicated to keeping it operating properly, not only from > the > tech standpoint, but just as important, to keep nasty people off. > The > same question applies to the Lutes for sale listings. At the very > least > we need someone ready to take posts down when the seller has > completed > the transaction. > I might see if Chris Henriksen can tell me if Bill Good would be > good > for this kind of thing. He did not want to be a custodian, but > maybe > this is more to his liking. Maybe Lyn Abissi will know someone. > These > two were making great strides toward setting up a local chapter > here > in > Boston, but the pandemic knocked that out, as far as I know. > At the next Board meeting, hopefully this fall, maybe some of our > new > Board members will either step up or know someone who could be > asked. > Feeling relieved that we are on a better track with this. > Cathy > Catherine Liddell > President/Chairman of the Board > [uc?id9TJhsqVKmGMNWhuR19WWXJYQU0&export=download] > [1]www.lutesocietyofamerica.org > On Sep 3, 2020, at 12:33 PM, LSA Editor > <[2][6]lsaq.edi...@gmail.com> > > wrote: > I think we should go ahead and get a new lutelist and For Sale > > > list > going so that we can harvest as many people as possible from the > old > lists ASAP - before they go away. Wayne has not mentioned his > archive > of all the old discussions on the lutelist and I am pretty sure > from > the note below he will not be giving them to us or anyone else. > I > think people do use that, but if he wants to keep it for himself, > that's fine. How about if I go ahead and start copying the text > and > contacts from the For Sale list? Jerry says he can set up a new > lute > list very quickly. > I think both the lutelist and the For Sale list have been around > for > so > long that there will be dead links for years bouncing toward > Wayne's > old computers. I am less interested in the pictures because David > van > Edwards has done a lot with pictures for the ELS. I have never > looked > at his treatises - again it is less interesting. > Nancy > HI Cathy > Thanks for your thoughtful and carefully worded message. I guess > I > was a little careless in the wording of my original message. My > intention was that someone, (perhaps the LSA), could start their > own > list, using their own software and computers, and announce it on > my > list when they were set up. Maybe that was what you folks meant, > but I > got the impression that my input was required, and I am retiring > and > no > longer want to be involved in doing sysadmin work. The same goes > for > the "lutes for sale" list. I would like to disconnect and turn > off > my > list completely and not leave anything hanging. In this case I > would > not want any advertisements left on another web site, where the > advertisers might not know how to take their ad down. To be > blunt, > I > would not want people to say "Wayne had a great for sale site but > something changed and now he isn't doing such a great job > anymore". > It > would be great to the LSA to start its own great "lutes for sale" > site. > My pages of lute pictures arranged by date were intended to show > people how the hand positions changed of the ages, but because I > didn't > explicitly say that I don't think anyone got the message. Oh > well. > I > am sure that better pictures are available on the web now. The > set > of > treatises on hand position is worth saving, most everything else > exists > to answer questions that people would email to me. > I am backing up my web sites, so nothing will be lost, and I may > start > another web site in the future. But right now I am retiring, and > there > are a lot of pieces to sort out and put away, and I apologize if > that > makes me a little irritable! > Wayne > On Thu, Sep 3, 2020 at 8:29 AM LSA President > <[3][7]lutesocietyamericapresid...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Dear Wayne, > The value you have added, the contribution you have made to the > > > lute > world with all of the work you have put into the lute list, the > links > to lute art, the lutes for sale and the TAB program over the > years > is > immeasurable. I suspect thousands have taken advantage of what > you > have > offered. Because of that, when you put out the announcement on > the > lute > list that you'd be retiring and the server would be shut down in > a > month's time, a certain tidal wave of panic developed. "What will > happen to the lute list?" "How will we buy and sell our > instruments?" > etc. Our minds quickly rushed to come up with a way to save all > this > material. It all snowballed from there. This is a testimony to > how > valuable what you have been offereing is seen to be. > I will confess that I was affected by the wording at the end of > your > announcement, "If someone wants to take up running the lute mail > listâ¦" > because it seemed to open the door to run-away thinking on the > part > of > myself, and other LSA folk, some of whom have contacted you > directly, > assuming, incorrectly it's now clear, that you were looking for a > home > for at least some parts of your work. > I apologize profusely for this reaction on our part. We, I, > should > have > contacted you directly to ask what you were planning, and to > offer > to > be helpful in some way, rather than assume that of course you > would > want your work to carry on. We have come off as pushy vultures, > and > that is ugly and unbecoming of a society that tries to engender > good > will and cooperation. We fail, sometimes, as we have here, but we > do > try. > It does feel sad to me to read "I am retiring, and my projects > will > retire with me." Of course that's your choice to make. Do I > understand > correctly then, that you would have no objection if we followed > the > leads in your email here, assuming we find the personnel to do > so? > This > would involve, as you describe: > 1) setting up a lute list on our site, and announcing on your > site > that > people can migrate over to the one we set up. > 2) contacting those with instruments to sell, asking them if they > want > to continue on our site. > It is clear to us that it will make no sense to undertake either > of > these efforts if we do not have someone to curate them properly. > I ask your forgiveness for our having come across like vultures. > We > were trying to help, and did so badly. > All best wishes faithful lute lover! > Cathy > Catherine Liddell > President/Chairman of the Board > [uc?id9TJhsqVKmGMNWhuR19WWXJYQU0&export=download] > [4]www.lutesocietyofamerica.org > On Sep 2, 2020, at 11:48 AM, Wayne Cripps > <[5][8]w...@cs.dartmouth.edu> > > wrote: > Dear Everyone > I am a bit bothered by what seems to me to be a "grab everything" > approach to > my various lute related web projects on your parts. I am retiring, > > > and > my proje > cts will retire with me. The next person's job is to take over with > their own p > roject, not to copy or clone mine. My projects are mine, they are > not > LSA proje > cts, even if I have been a member of the LSA in the past. > - the lute mail list runs on propriatary software. If you would like > to start a > nd maintain a lute mail list there are many excellent packages out > there. [6]gr > oups.io seems to be a good one. Once you have it set up you can > announce it on > my list. > - Lutes For Sale - because people who advertise on my lutes for sale > page expose > themselves to quite a bit of spam, it is important that they can > contact someon > e (me) to have their information removed as soon as possible. For > this > reason i > t would not be appropriate for you to copy the existing list. If you > want to st > art your own list you could write to the advertisers on my list and > ask > them if > they would like to advertise on your list. Then they will have a > connection wit > h you when it comes time to remove their posting. > - Lute Tablature - Sarge Gerbode has a very complete site for > Renaissance music > in tablature, which certainly has all of the same music that my site > has, given > that he has scraped my site. If I find a demand for my tablature I > may > start an > other site somewhere. You may have technical issues copying the > tablature witho > ut some effort. > - Web pages - the fact is that anyone can copy anything off the web, > but I do fe > el that my pages are my creation and work, and if someone simply > clones > it they > are not respecting that. (I must say here that Caroline Usher > contributed quite > a lot in the early days.) Besides, the wayback machine has it all. > The LSA di > d once have a web site on my computer, but it was their site, and my > site is my > site. > My feeling is also that in efforts like this, people are eager to > jump > in to th > e project, but they don't tend to stick around. The lutes for sale > project need > s constant maintenance and the mail list requires supervision. > Sincerely, > Wayne > -- > Nancy Carlin > Administrator & LSA Quarterly General Editor > Lute Society of America > PO Box 6499 > Concord, CA 94524 > 925-686-5800 > -- > Nancy Carlin > Administrator & LSA Quarterly General Editor > Lute Society of America > PO Box 6499 > Concord, CA 94524 > 925-686-5800 > -- > References > 1. [1][9]http://www.lutesocietyofamerica.org/ > 2. [2]mailto:[10]lsaq.edi...@gmail.com > 3. [3]mailto:[11]lutesocietyamericapresid...@gmail.com > 4. [4][12]http://www.lutesocietyofamerica.org/ > 5. [5]mailto:[13]w...@cs.dartmouth.edu > 6. [6][14]http://groups.io/ > To get on or off this list see list information at > [7][15]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > Virus-free. [8]www.avast.com > -- > References > Visible links: > 1. [16]http://www.lutesocietyofamerica.org/ > 2. mailto:[17]lsaq.edi...@gmail.com > 3. mailto:[18]lutesocietyamericapresid...@gmail.com > 4. [19]http://www.lutesocietyofamerica.org/ > 5. mailto:[20]w...@cs.dartmouth.edu > 6. [21]http://groups.io/ > 7. [22]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > 8. > [23]https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&ut > m_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=link > Hidden links: > 10. > [24]https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&ut > m_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=icon > 11. > file://localhost/net/ifs-users/lute-arc/L1617112-5620TMP.html#DAB4FAD8- > 2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2 > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------! 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----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > References > > 1. mailto:lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu > 2. mailto:lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu > 3. mailto:lsaq.edi...@gmail.com > 4. mailto:lutesocietyamericapresid...@gmail.com > 5. mailto:Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > 6. mailto:lsaq.edi...@gmail.com > 7. mailto:lutesocietyamericapresid...@gmail.com > 8. mailto:w...@cs.dartmouth.edu > 9. http://www.lutesocietyofamerica.org/ > 10. mailto:lsaq.edi...@gmail.com > 11. mailto:lutesocietyamericapresid...@gmail.com > 12. http://www.lutesocietyofamerica.org/ > 13. mailto:w...@cs.dartmouth.edu > 14. http://groups.io/ > 15. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > 16. http://www.lutesocietyofamerica.org/ > 17. mailto:lsaq.edi...@gmail.com > 18. mailto:lutesocietyamericapresid...@gmail.com > 19. http://www.lutesocietyofamerica.org/ > 20. mailto:w...@cs.dartmouth.edu > 21. http://groups.io/ > 22. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > 23. > https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=link > 24. > https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=icon
