Abdelrazak Younes wrote: > Georg Baum wrote: >> Am Samstag, 14. April 2007 15:23 schrieb Abdelrazak Younes: >>> Georg Baum wrote: >>>> Am Freitag, 13. April 2007 21:38 schrieb Abdelrazak Younes: >>>>> Just look at the traffic on the user list. >>>>> There is no such thing as a "lost reputation" in an open source >> project. >>>> Of course there is. But you can't see that from the mailing list of a >>>> project, because most people who think it is crap simply ignore it and >> use >>>> something else. >>> And good bye to them. I mean it, there are more and more users everyday. >>> I don't care about the winning ones, they can use something else if >>> they can't see the benefit. It's free for all. >> >> I was not talking about whining users, I don't care for them either. I >> was talking about users with valid complaints, e.g. users who expect from >> a word processor that the scrollbar behaves sensible. Depending on the >> document contents the LyX scrollbar behaves very unsensible, so I would >> not call complaints about that whining. > > On the scrollbar issue, what can I say? I more or less know what needs > to be done but I cannot do that without further cleanup. I'll promise to > do something for 1.5.1 but not now.
In order to destabilize 1.5.1 because of the cleanup? > IMO, we cannot wait forever that you > or I, or Bo, Andre, Michael or JMarc (...) have the time to fix all > remaining issues. IMHO, we cannot afford that or the 1.4.0 saga is going > to be repeated: no development done for a year or so. The big difference between 1.4.0 and 1.5.0 is that for 1.4.0 no nontrivial bugfixing was allowed. >>>>> My time is mine and I believe that there is some outcome to interested >>>>> developers: they actually benefits from the explanations given in >> these >>>>> discussions. There is a life after 1.5.0. >>>> Sure, but then the current discussions are forgotten, and if you want >> to >>>> use some results you have to revive them (because some people who don't >>>> participate now because of the timing would have a strong opinion >> later). >>> That's only what you think. I consider that any discussion is good >>> independently from the time when it takes place. >> >> Apart from the 'forgotten' bit this is not what I think but a fact. You >> cannot dictate what happens in the future by discussing this now without >> those who prefer to do bug fixing, and later refer to this past >> discussion and forbid those who did not participate to give their >> arguments. > > Come on Georg, do you really think I have a tendency to ignore people's > opinion? Do you really think that I will throw to you some "We already > discussed that so shut up!". If yes, then I can confirm to you that I > will not. AFAIR, I've never ignored your opinion or anyone else opinion > for the matter. No, I don't think that you would ignore any opinion. That brings us back to my statement above: The discussions will revive. I think we can stop here. >>>>> Please Georg, try to restrain yourself from giving lessons. I only >> asked >>>>> for a list of bugs. >>>> Such is life: You don't always get exactly what you ask for. Don't >> worry, I >>>> will not try to convince anybody to share my opinion, but please allow >> me >>>> to state it. >>> That's not my point. My point is that you have a irritating habit of >>> telling people what they should do or not. I personally don't like this, >>> I don't tell you what you should do or discuss. >> >> Where did I do that? Certainly not in this thread, here I only described >> why I think that 1.5.0 is not as close as you thought, and what my goal >> for 1.5.0 would be. I did not tell anybody what they should do, and I did >> not give any "moral" lessons either. > > Here: > > "Another reason is that several people are discussing (and changing) > fundamental design principles of LyX (e.g. the separation of frontend - > kernel via the lfun machinery), or doing some 'cleanup'. Now is > definitely not the time to even think about either of that. > Or political discussions like the place of debug.h. This eats a lot of > time with no outcome." > > But if you said that because you feared that I will ignore you when the > time comes then I withdraw my accusation. I see, this could be read as some lesson. I chose a drastic formulation to draw some attention, but in fact this is of course all IMHO. >> I am very sad that LyX goes a way that IMO is not a good one (e.g. file >> format changes happen without lyx2lyx change and even without discussion > > I don't think that there is no discussion. Even if they happen after the > commit, the discussion happens for all the mentioned items: Where is the file format change discussed? >> (gbrief2), bug ping pong is being played (the math delim stuff, also >> without real communication), > > Sorry I don't get it, aren't we discussing the matter with Uwe? Yes, there are discussions now, but some days ago there was some bug ping pong (IIRC between you, Enrico and Uwe, but I may be wrong). For me real communication looks like this: 1) Developer X sends a patch and explains what it is doing 2) Developer Y finds a problem and possibly presents a solution 3) Developer X confirms that the solution still fixes the original problem, or presents one himself, or has still some questions. 2) and 3) could be repeated a few times, but in the end both X and Y understand the whole problem, and not only parts of it. I believe that this is the case now for the delimiters case, but what happens currently very often is "first commit, then think". This is what I call playing bug ping pong (you fix one bug by introducing another), especially since the commit messages are often too short and do not explain the changes, so it is very difficult for others to follow. >> rules are ignored at will (José asked for >> patches being sent for comments to the list before committing). > > Sorry but we cannot wait for Jose to approve all patches. No offence > Jose but you obviously don't have the time to do so. Nobody ever said that you should wait for the OK of Jose. The rule was that patches should be sent to the list for review, and that there should be some reasonable time allowed for others to comment. I am very glad that this is not a strict rule anymore, e.g. trivial stuff like correcting some formatting one found by accident can simply be committed. The current problem is that some patches go in with unusable log mesages, and nobody besides the committer knows what the patch does. >> In the past I have tried to help with issues like this, e.g. by watching >> patches for possible file format changes and offering help with lyx2lyx >> if needed, but since the majority of developers thinks obviously >> different and since I will only have little spare time during the next >> months I decided to stop any further work on LyX 1.5svn: I don't want to >> help with a release that I cannot endorse. > > Your resignation is not accepted! ... Wait, who am I to say this? Hello > Georg, this is just me, Abdel, I am a LyX developer for a year only. > Your opinion is of course more important than mine. Not if LyX is concerned (since you are investing much more time), but if the question is how I spend my spare time then my opinion is the only one that matters. And please don't think that I made this decision becaue of you, your mail was only the last straw that broke the camel's back. I almost made the same decision after Denmark already. > Don't need to say... I'll invite you for dinner in Paris with JMarc next > time you come to Paris. Thanks, I hope I'll remember that :-) I think we can stop this discussion now. We have different opinions, and they are sufficiently clear IMHO. Georg
