Hi, List, What I meant is that I felt that someone made a comment of something that only insiders would know. It was not something that Apple made public.
Regards, Alex, On 7-Jul-09, at 3:41 PM, Barry Hadder wrote: > > Well, you make some valid and well articulated points. However, I > personally am not ready to feel discriminated against because they're > not showing accessibility features. I'm happy so long as they're > putting that suff in. I have to say though that I think it is a > stretch to claim that this discussion violated any ndas. The Ndas > apply to paying members of Apple's dev center and have inside > information on the inner workings of Snow Leopard. Maybe someone in > this thread is a member. I don't know. But I seriously doubt that > Apple is too concerned about people discussing features of interest. > They've allreay posted allot of stuff so why not this? What you > probably dont want to post is something about how open cl works. > > On Jul 7, 2009, at 4:41 PM, Justin Harford wrote: > >> >> Hi all >> >> I just got a look at this thread. It seems that, once again, I am >> ignorant of how we, as equal citizens with equal legal >> responsibilities should view ourselves as apple customers. I wonder >> if someone might please educate me on what is wrong with the >> proposition that we should have some sort of audio demonstrations of >> upcoming apple accessibility developments. Please allow me to >> explain >> myself. >> >> Of course the idea that we are entitled to this information as >> blind people is completely ridiculous, but I still wonder why no one >> is bothered that apple don't put out a demo of the technology for us >> to listen to. Scott you said >> >> "You are not entitled to know any more than your sighted >> counterpart." >> >> I agree. As it is, our sighted counterparts get to see live >> demonstrations of the technologies in which they will invest their >> money. There was a snow-leopard demo at the last WWDC. When Leopard >> came out, there was also a WWDC demo and more demos on apple's >> website. When the iPhone 3gs came out, apple offered a demonstration >> on their website. When the iPod shuffle came out, apple again >> offered >> a demo on their website. In all of these cases, perhaps with the >> exception of the shuffle and maybe the voice control on the iPhone if >> you count that as accessibility, there was no demonstration of >> VoiceOver. Of course, the blind as such a small customer base should >> give apple no occasion to suffer itself to demonstrate VO before an >> audience of WWDC developers and customers, who couldn't care less, >> but >> is putting up a little audio demonstration on their accessibility >> page >> really too much to ask? >> >> It is true. I'm not entitled to know anything more than my sighted >> counterpart, and I guess at this point, that is how things are. The >> sighted don't know how accessibility works under snow-leopard, just >> as >> I don't know. I know that snow-leopard offers the capability to >> watch >> movies through finder icons, just as the sighted know. The average >> sighted joe does not care about accessibility improvements, just as I >> don't care about watching movies through icons. Something just seems >> wrong here, though I'm having trouble putting my finger on it. >> >> I think that apple customers should be shown the things they care >> about. Some people care about photos on the mac, so they show them. >> Some people care about listening to music and watching videos, so >> they >> show it. Some people want to be productive in a business setting on >> their macs, so they show productivity. Some people care about the >> development tools, so they show those. In our case, we care about >> accessibility, why not show it, not because we are blind people >> looking for concessions or special treatment, but as consumers >> spending money on apple products. >> >> I have read the descriptions of snow leopard, and am pretty sure that >> I will buy a copy when it comes out, because the descriptions on >> apple's website are compelling enough. Even if accessibility >> improvements prove to be minor or non-existent, the improvements in >> speed and stability will make it worth the money. So, I don't feel >> the need to raise a scandal over the fact that I can't legally listen >> to an audio demonstration of VoiceOver 3.0. No problem. >> Nevertheless, the fact that people wanting a little taste of future >> apple accessibility developments, like the demonstrations that their >> sighted counterparts get, are so brusquely talked down and at times >> hunted like criminals and reported to the authorities, continues to >> elude me. >> >> This is the view I have of things now. As I stated before, it is >> becoming increasingly obvious that it is out-of-step with the common >> consensus, so I wonder if someone might not come forward and tell me >> why I am wrong. The perspectives and premises we hold in life >> profoundly govern the way we carry ourselves in the world. I most >> certainly would not want to continue harboring views which cause my >> conduct to be excessively abrasive and unpalatable to those around >> me. That is why, without sarcasm, I'm asking for a change in >> perspective for me and the others who ignorantly continue in this >> error. >> >> Best regards >> Justin Harford >> >> On Jul 7, 2009, at 12:21 PM, Scott Howell wrote: >> >>> >>> Oh, no, you as a blind person do not have a right to know anything >>> different than anyone else. You are not entitled to know any more >>> than >>> your sighted counterpart. WHen Apple releases the information about >>> Snow Leopard, you can read and make a decision as to whether or not >>> you would want to upgrade, just as anyone else would. Being blind >>> does >>> not extend any special entitlements and any violation of the NDA >>> that >>> was signed is not only breaking a contract between you and Apple or >>> whomever you entered into the agreement with, it also jeopardizes >>> future involvement in other projects. Point is you agreed to a >>> contract and knowing the terms and conditions of that contract, you >>> are legally bound and obligated to comply with the agreement. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>> fair enough though we are all blind and have a right to know what >>>> will >>>> be included in my view >>>> >>>> On 7 Jul 2009, at 19:11, Alex Jurgensen wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Hi, >>>>> Red flag, >>>>> >>>>> We are moving into grey ares. Please keep the posts NDA compliant. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> Alex, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 7-Jul-09, at 10:46 AM, Justin Harford wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> It will. >>>>>> On Jul 7, 2009, at 10:13 AM, william lomas wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> what I meant to say was I am not sure if voice over itself will >>>>>>> ship >>>>>>> with voices in italian, greek, arabic, russian polish, etc. or >>>>>>> whether >>>>>>> we are still locked down to using acapella >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 7 Jul 2009, at 18:07, Koumanova Rostislava wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> i did not understand this post. >>>>>>>> i know that you have to buy the foreign languages. >>>>>>>> rk >>>>>>>> Il giorno 07/lug/09, alle ore 18:06, william lomas ha scritto: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> it says on the site the quickstart is localised in eighteen >>>>>>>>> languages >>>>>>>>> with nine new ones and with the voices you can hear it in your >>>>>>>>> own >>>>>>>>> languages >>>>>>>>> but i hope that the eighteen or so work with pre-defined >>>>>>>>> foreign >>>>>>>>> voices >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 7 Jul 2009, at 16:51, Simon Cavendish wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> O yes, I entirely agree. They have always acknowledged my >>>>>>>>>> posts, >>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>> I'm sure they are trying to do their best in Braille >>>>>>>>>> support. I >>>>>>>>>> wouldn't be without my Mac now. No regrets switching on my >>>>>>>>>> part! >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> With best wishes, Simon >>>>>>>>>> On 7 Jul 2009, at 16:44, James & Nash wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I hear what you're saying Simon. To Apple's credit, they >>>>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>>>> always >>>>>>>>>>> acknowledged my messages and have offered support where they >>>>>>>>>>> can. I >>>>>>>>>>> still >>>>>>>>>>> like and would continue to use Windows for things but I do >>>>>>>>>>> miss >>>>>>>>>>> Mac. >>>>>>>>>>> That's >>>>>>>>>>> why I'm going to purchase a new one. >>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>>>> From: "Simon Cavendish" <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>>> To: <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 4:34 PM >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Voice Over in Snow Leopard >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I have been e-mailing Apple accessibility regarding >>>>>>>>>>>> providing a >>>>>>>>>>>> broader support in refreshable Braille for other >>>>>>>>>>>> languages. I >>>>>>>>>>>> do >>>>>>>>>>>> hope >>>>>>>>>>>> Snow Leopard is going to bring this aspect to those of us >>>>>>>>>>>> who >>>>>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>>>> benefit from it. It would certainly accelerate my leaving >>>>>>>>>>>> Windows >>>>>>>>>>>> behind altogether. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> With best wishes >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Simon >>>>>>>>>>>> On 7 Jul 2009, at 11:50, James & Nash wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Well on the Snow Leopard page there is a host of different >>>>>>>>>>>>> features. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, I >>>>>>>>>>>>> think I remember reading that something - it may have been >>>>>>>>>>>>> Voice >>>>>>>>>>>>> Over - was >>>>>>>>>>>>> localized in about 40 different languages. But I'm not >>>>>>>>>>>>> sure >>>>>>>>>>>>> about >>>>>>>>>>>>> Braille >>>>>>>>>>>>> support. However, if you can some way implement BRLTTY or >>>>>>>>>>>>> ask >>>>>>>>>>>>> Apple >>>>>>>>>>>>> to do so >>>>>>>>>>>>> we may get native foreign language Braille support. I >>>>>>>>>>>>> think >>>>>>>>>>>>> Apple >>>>>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>>>> Linux >>>>>>>>>>>>> based, so this should not be too difficult. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Take care >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> James >>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "william lomas" <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>>>>> To: <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 11:39 AM >>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Voice Over in Snow Leopard >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> is there a complete list of new features? i.e. >>>>>>>>>>>>> .do we get new language voices i wonder >>>>>>>>>>>>> . new braille support in other alnguages? >>>>>>>>>>>>> etc >>>>>>>>>>>>> i guess we will not know these details really until the >>>>>>>>>>>>> product >>>>>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>>>> out >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 7 Jul 2009, at 11:29, James & Nash wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> It sounds like Snow Leopard is an upgrade. Is this the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> case? >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Fortunately, I >>>>>>>>>>>>>> have a copy of 10.5 which I bought last year so if so >>>>>>>>>>>>>> then >>>>>>>>>>>>>> there >>>>>>>>>>>>>> shouldn't >>>>>>>>>>>>>> be any problem. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Take care >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> James >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Scott Howell" <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 10:25 AM >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Voice Over in Snow Leopard >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe so, but it will be worth upgrading and the cost is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> so >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unreal, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't make much since to skip this upgrade. There are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> other >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reasons >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> beyond accessibility to upgrade. I can guarantee you >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> $30 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> very small price to pay for the improvements and many of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> may >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not have considered or realized. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 7, 2009, at 2:47 AM, william lomas wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> i doubt we get new voices except maybe the ones found >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the i >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> phone. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am going to wait to upgrade i think, what I have now >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> works >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fine. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> UPgrading won't give us for example, access to flash >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> content >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> so >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> no >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> point in me upgrading since a lot of sites I use, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> require >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> flash >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> navigation which adobe have not yet incorporated into >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> safari or >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> other web browsers >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 7 Jul 2009, at 02:53, Jenny Kennedy wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yay! I'm very very glad to hear this wonderful news. A >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> little >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bummed I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't have a fancy trackpad. I have heard some of the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> iPhone >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> demos >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gestures just sound so cool and fun. I guess I'll >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> put >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> up >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> old tech. LOL I hope to get an iPhone in the future >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> happy >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to wait 'til then to try gestures. Unless my getting a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> new >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> macbook >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> happens first. But as this one is still fairly newish >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'll >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wait. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Who >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> know by the time it comes time for me to get a new >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> macbook >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they'll of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> come up with many more new and cool things. : smiley : >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Can't wait 'til SL comes out. I know it's not too far >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> off >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sounds so awesome. Am keen to hear any new voices. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Have >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> always >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> liked >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the UK voices. The best thing would be a UK version of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Alex, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> breths and all. I still think that's uber cool how >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Alex >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> voice >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> does >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jenny >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/6/09, Scott Howell <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jenny, first only the Aluminum MacBooks contain the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> multi- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> touch >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> trackpad unless Apple upgrades the MacBook line- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Remember >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> aluminum >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> models are now referred to as the MacBook Pro line. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> SL >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> work >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fine on your model. The most significant requirement >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> must >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> an >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Intel processor since the Power PC chips, such as >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> found >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> G4/G5 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> machines will not be supported by SL. I'd recommend >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> least >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2Gb ram, but 1Gb will get the job done. The commands, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> issued >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from the trackpad are the same commands you can issue >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> currently >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> VO. It is another means to interact with the os using >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> VO >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hard to say what the future holds for such a trackpad >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> VO. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> point is that if you have heard the iPhone demos, you >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> get >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> an >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> idea >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of how the trackpad could behave and a little >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> imagination >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> might >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> lead >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you to speculate what Apple could possibly do in the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> future. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So, have no fear and prepare to upgrade, it will be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> well >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> worth >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 6, 2009, at 7:59 PM, Jenny Kennedy wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Okay. So am I to understand that the macbook pro >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> line >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> only >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> line >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that has this fancy mousepad thing? I got my macbook >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> April >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of 08 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and it is the little white one. I adore it and have >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> been >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> waiting >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> SL to come out. Will SL even work at all on this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sort >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> macbook? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Oh >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm sure the os will work but will VO function if I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fancy mousepad thing? Are there keyboard shortcuts >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> do >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> whatever >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doable with the mousepad? Sorry to be so abrupt >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gotta >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> run. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thanks >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> any answers >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> best wishes >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jenny >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/6/09, Claude Renaud <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hello James, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sunday, July 5, 2009, 12:31:19 PM, you wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> JN> Hi everyone, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> JN> I've been reading the new VO features in Snow >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Leopard. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Where di you read this please ? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Claude Renaud >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>>> >> >> >>> > > > > --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group. 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