Hi, Genny, I have the BT Apple one without numpad, but there is also stand alone numpads that may come in bt versions.
For USB hubs, I have a bus powered four-port hub that is about three inches by three inches if that. Cost: Apple BT keyboard: CAD $80; BT numpad: CAD $70-150; USB hub: CAD $1.00-4.00; Regards, Alex, On 9-Jul-09, at 4:09 PM, Jenny Kennedy wrote: > > Oh goodness. I'm so sorry. I didn't mean to cause confusion. No. I > thought I had read someplace on this list that soneone had thought num > pad commander was getting scrapped. > It isn't. Thank goodness because that's what I use now that I have a > wireless keyboard connected to the macbook... > > This leads me to a question though. If SL is going to support > bluetooth braille displays, would they or is there even, a bluetooth > keyboard to buy? I'm thinking something along the lines of a small > desktop sort of bluetooth keyboard. I like the wireless one but it > takes up one of my two USB ports and my t-drive takes up the other > when I'm in the bedroom... I need more usb ports and if I could > scruntch my USB requirements I wouldn't have to look for such a large > usb hub. > Best wishes > Jenny > > On 7/9/09, James & Nash <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> Ah ok i understand now tahnk you >> >> James >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Alex Jurgensen" <[email protected]> >> To: <[email protected]> >> Sent: Thursday, July 09, 2009 4:28 PM >> Subject: Re: Voice Over in Snow Leopard >> >> >>> >>> HI, >>> >>> No. The older Macbooks used to have a built-in Numpad overlay. The >>> external numpads and esktop keyboard number pads still work in >>> Leopard. >>> >>> Regards, >>> Alex, >>> >>> >>> On 9-Jul-09, at 7:06 AM, James & Nash wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> Hi Alex, are you saying that if I were to buy an ordinary MacBook >>>> and i >>>> attached a desktop keyboard to it, I would be unable to use the >>>> numpad >>>> commander. Is this also the case for MacBook Pro? >>>> >>>> Thanks >>>> >>>> James >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Alex Jurgensen" <[email protected]> >>>> To: <[email protected]> >>>> Sent: Thursday, July 09, 2009 2:20 PM >>>> Subject: Re: Voice Over in Snow Leopard >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> HI, >>>>> >>>>> They scrapped the number pad on the Macbooks,, but as far as >>>>> anythingelse, I have not heard anyting. >>>>> >>>>> Regards, >>>>> Alex, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 9-Jul-09, at 2:39 AM, Scott Howell wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Jenny, what gave you the idea they would scrap the Numpad >>>>>> Commander. >>>>>> There is nothing that indicates there was any such plan. Did you >>>>>> read >>>>>> this somewhere or did someone tell you this? >>>>>> >>>>>> On Jul 9, 2009, at 3:54 AM, Jenny Kennedy wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Okay hi. If I remember correctly the num pad commander was >>>>>>> going to >>>>>>> be >>>>>>> in SL. I thought I read in this thred that it was getting >>>>>>> scrapped. >>>>>>> But I don't think it is. >>>>>>> I know we have to wait 'til September. But that doesn't make it >>>>>>> easy. >>>>>>> I think we shoould have demos of the accessibility features just >>>>>>> like >>>>>>> the sighted people get a peak at stuff. But good points have >>>>>>> been >>>>>>> made >>>>>>> that WWDC is for developers. Although the keynote and demos >>>>>>> there >>>>>>> in >>>>>>> are made public. So I think it would be nice to have access >>>>>>> demos. >>>>>>> But >>>>>>> understand they may not have enough people to do this or unaware >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> interest is out there. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The windows access providers offer demos because that is their >>>>>>> main >>>>>>> thing. To move windows access. So of corse they will have demos. >>>>>>> Apple >>>>>>> has all sorts of stuff going on. I'm not mad about it or feel >>>>>>> put >>>>>>> in a >>>>>>> lower class of users or anything. I think it is so awesome Apple >>>>>>> has >>>>>>> not only built in access but done such a steller job with what >>>>>>> they >>>>>>> have. It seems that they listen to us when we have trouble as do >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> developers of many software offerings for the mac. So I'm >>>>>>> going to >>>>>>> cut >>>>>>> them a little slack. >>>>>>> Best wishes. >>>>>>> Jenny >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 7/8/09, Marshall Scott <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Another thing to remember is that WWDC is not intended for the >>>>>>>> general >>>>>>>> public. You have to pay to get into the meeting and it's >>>>>>>> primarily >>>>>>>> intended for developers. Also, I believe that most of the >>>>>>>> rest of >>>>>>>> WWDC is under NDA. I've heard you can actually buy videos of >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> other sessions but I don't think they're inexpensive. >>>>>>>> Marsh >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Jul 7, 2009, at 4:49 PM, Scott Howell wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I don't believe there is any problem putting your finger on >>>>>>>>> it. I >>>>>>>>> won't disagree that perhaps some demonstration of some >>>>>>>>> features >>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>> not hurt and I encourage you to contact >>>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> make the suggestion. It is possible they simply have not >>>>>>>>> considered >>>>>>>>> this or it is also possible that do to ongoing efforts to >>>>>>>>> improve >>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> insure the enhancements are functioning properly, it may not >>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>> time >>>>>>>>> to offer a demonstration. Also, it could even be there is >>>>>>>>> simply >>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>> enough staff to even put a demo together. I don't know exactly >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> number of folks dedicated to the accessibility of the os and >>>>>>>>> apps, >>>>>>>>> but >>>>>>>>> it may be an issue of resources. I don't disagree it would be >>>>>>>>> nice >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> see accessibility get a bit more face-time like the other >>>>>>>>> features >>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>> the os. Where I have an issue is with statements that >>>>>>>>> indicate an >>>>>>>>> entitlement and therefore that is why I made the comments I >>>>>>>>> did. I >>>>>>>>> can >>>>>>>>> understand and appreciate the desire to have a preview, we all >>>>>>>>> want to >>>>>>>>> know what's coming, but there may very well be reasons for >>>>>>>>> why it >>>>>>>>> has >>>>>>>>> not happen. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Jul 7, 2009, at 5:41 PM, Justin Harford wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Hi all >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I just got a look at this thread. It seems that, once again, >>>>>>>>>> I am >>>>>>>>>> ignorant of how we, as equal citizens with equal legal >>>>>>>>>> responsibilities should view ourselves as apple customers. I >>>>>>>>>> wonder >>>>>>>>>> if someone might please educate me on what is wrong with the >>>>>>>>>> proposition that we should have some sort of audio >>>>>>>>>> demonstrations >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>> upcoming apple accessibility developments. Please allow me >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> explain >>>>>>>>>> myself. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Of course the idea that we are entitled to this information >>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>> blind people is completely ridiculous, but I still wonder >>>>>>>>>> why no >>>>>>>>>> one >>>>>>>>>> is bothered that apple don't put out a demo of the technology >>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> us >>>>>>>>>> to listen to. Scott you said >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> "You are not entitled to know any more than your sighted >>>>>>>>>> counterpart." >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I agree. As it is, our sighted counterparts get to see live >>>>>>>>>> demonstrations of the technologies in which they will invest >>>>>>>>>> their >>>>>>>>>> money. There was a snow-leopard demo at the last WWDC. When >>>>>>>>>> Leopard >>>>>>>>>> came out, there was also a WWDC demo and more demos on >>>>>>>>>> apple's >>>>>>>>>> website. When the iPhone 3gs came out, apple offered a >>>>>>>>>> demonstration >>>>>>>>>> on their website. When the iPod shuffle came out, apple >>>>>>>>>> again >>>>>>>>>> offered >>>>>>>>>> a demo on their website. In all of these cases, perhaps with >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> exception of the shuffle and maybe the voice control on the >>>>>>>>>> iPhone if >>>>>>>>>> you count that as accessibility, there was no demonstration >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>> VoiceOver. Of course, the blind as such a small customer >>>>>>>>>> base >>>>>>>>>> should >>>>>>>>>> give apple no occasion to suffer itself to demonstrate VO >>>>>>>>>> before >>>>>>>>>> an >>>>>>>>>> audience of WWDC developers and customers, who couldn't care >>>>>>>>>> less, >>>>>>>>>> but >>>>>>>>>> is putting up a little audio demonstration on their >>>>>>>>>> accessibility >>>>>>>>>> page >>>>>>>>>> really too much to ask? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> It is true. I'm not entitled to know anything more than my >>>>>>>>>> sighted >>>>>>>>>> counterpart, and I guess at this point, that is how things >>>>>>>>>> are. >>>>>>>>>> The >>>>>>>>>> sighted don't know how accessibility works under snow- >>>>>>>>>> leopard, >>>>>>>>>> just >>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>> I don't know. I know that snow-leopard offers the >>>>>>>>>> capability to >>>>>>>>>> watch >>>>>>>>>> movies through finder icons, just as the sighted know. The >>>>>>>>>> average >>>>>>>>>> sighted joe does not care about accessibility improvements, >>>>>>>>>> just >>>>>>>>>> as I >>>>>>>>>> don't care about watching movies through icons. Something >>>>>>>>>> just >>>>>>>>>> seems >>>>>>>>>> wrong here, though I'm having trouble putting my finger on >>>>>>>>>> it. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I think that apple customers should be shown the things they >>>>>>>>>> care >>>>>>>>>> about. Some people care about photos on the mac, so they >>>>>>>>>> show >>>>>>>>>> them. >>>>>>>>>> Some people care about listening to music and watching >>>>>>>>>> videos, >>>>>>>>>> so >>>>>>>>>> they >>>>>>>>>> show it. Some people want to be productive in a business >>>>>>>>>> setting >>>>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>>> their macs, so they show productivity. Some people care >>>>>>>>>> about >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> development tools, so they show those. In our case, we care >>>>>>>>>> about >>>>>>>>>> accessibility, why not show it, not because we are blind >>>>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>>>> looking for concessions or special treatment, but as >>>>>>>>>> consumers >>>>>>>>>> spending money on apple products. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I have read the descriptions of snow leopard, and am pretty >>>>>>>>>> sure >>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>> I will buy a copy when it comes out, because the >>>>>>>>>> descriptions on >>>>>>>>>> apple's website are compelling enough. Even if accessibility >>>>>>>>>> improvements prove to be minor or non-existent, the >>>>>>>>>> improvements >>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>> speed and stability will make it worth the money. So, I >>>>>>>>>> don't >>>>>>>>>> feel >>>>>>>>>> the need to raise a scandal over the fact that I can't >>>>>>>>>> legally >>>>>>>>>> listen >>>>>>>>>> to an audio demonstration of VoiceOver 3.0. No problem. >>>>>>>>>> Nevertheless, the fact that people wanting a little taste of >>>>>>>>>> future >>>>>>>>>> apple accessibility developments, like the demonstrations >>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>> their >>>>>>>>>> sighted counterparts get, are so brusquely talked down and at >>>>>>>>>> times >>>>>>>>>> hunted like criminals and reported to the authorities, >>>>>>>>>> continues >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> elude me. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> This is the view I have of things now. As I stated before, >>>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>> becoming increasingly obvious that it is out-of-step with the >>>>>>>>>> common >>>>>>>>>> consensus, so I wonder if someone might not come forward and >>>>>>>>>> tell >>>>>>>>>> me >>>>>>>>>> why I am wrong. The perspectives and premises we hold in >>>>>>>>>> life >>>>>>>>>> profoundly govern the way we carry ourselves in the world. I >>>>>>>>>> most >>>>>>>>>> certainly would not want to continue harboring views which >>>>>>>>>> cause >>>>>>>>>> my >>>>>>>>>> conduct to be excessively abrasive and unpalatable to those >>>>>>>>>> around >>>>>>>>>> me. That is why, without sarcasm, I'm asking for a change in >>>>>>>>>> perspective for me and the others who ignorantly continue in >>>>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>>> error. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Best regards >>>>>>>>>> Justin Harford >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Jul 7, 2009, at 12:21 PM, Scott Howell wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Oh, no, you as a blind person do not have a right to know >>>>>>>>>>> anything >>>>>>>>>>> different than anyone else. You are not entitled to know any >>>>>>>>>>> more >>>>>>>>>>> than >>>>>>>>>>> your sighted counterpart. WHen Apple releases the >>>>>>>>>>> information >>>>>>>>>>> about >>>>>>>>>>> Snow Leopard, you can read and make a decision as to >>>>>>>>>>> whether or >>>>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>>>> you would want to upgrade, just as anyone else would. Being >>>>>>>>>>> blind >>>>>>>>>>> does >>>>>>>>>>> not extend any special entitlements and any violation of the >>>>>>>>>>> NDA >>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>> was signed is not only breaking a contract between you and >>>>>>>>>>> Apple >>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>> whomever you entered into the agreement with, it also >>>>>>>>>>> jeopardizes >>>>>>>>>>> future involvement in other projects. Point is you agreed >>>>>>>>>>> to a >>>>>>>>>>> contract and knowing the terms and conditions of that >>>>>>>>>>> contract, >>>>>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>>>>> are legally bound and obligated to comply with the >>>>>>>>>>> agreement. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> fair enough though we are all blind and have a right to >>>>>>>>>>>> know >>>>>>>>>>>> what >>>>>>>>>>>> will >>>>>>>>>>>> be included in my view >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 7 Jul 2009, at 19:11, Alex Jurgensen wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi, >>>>>>>>>>>>> Red flag, >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> We are moving into grey ares. Please keep the posts NDA >>>>>>>>>>>>> compliant. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>>>>>>> Alex, >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 7-Jul-09, at 10:46 AM, Justin Harford wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> It will. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 7, 2009, at 10:13 AM, william lomas wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what I meant to say was I am not sure if voice over >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> itself >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ship >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with voices in italian, greek, arabic, russian polish, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> whether >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we are still locked down to using acapella >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 7 Jul 2009, at 18:07, Koumanova Rostislava wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> i did not understand this post. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> i know that you have to buy the foreign languages. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rk >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Il giorno 07/lug/09, alle ore 18:06, william lomas ha >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> scritto: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it says on the site the quickstart is localised in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> eighteen >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> languages >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with nine new ones and with the voices you can hear >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> own >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> languages >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but i hope that the eighteen or so work with pre- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> defined >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> foreign >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> voices >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 7 Jul 2009, at 16:51, Simon Cavendish wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> O yes, I entirely agree. They have always >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> acknowledged >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> my >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> posts, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm sure they are trying to do their best in Braille >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> support. I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wouldn't be without my Mac now. No regrets switching >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on my >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> part! >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> With best wishes, Simon >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 7 Jul 2009, at 16:44, James & Nash wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I hear what you're saying Simon. To Apple's credit, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> always >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> acknowledged my messages and have offered support >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> where >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can. I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> still >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> like and would continue to use Windows for things >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> do >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> miss >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mac. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That's >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> why I'm going to purchase a new one. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Simon Cavendish" >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 4:34 PM >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Voice Over in Snow Leopard >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have been e-mailing Apple accessibility regarding >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> providing a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> broader support in refreshable Braille for other >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> languages. I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> do >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hope >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Snow Leopard is going to bring this aspect to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> those of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> us >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> benefit from it. It would certainly accelerate my >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> leaving >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Windows >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> behind altogether. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> With best wishes >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Simon >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 7 Jul 2009, at 11:50, James & Nash wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well on the Snow Leopard page there is a host of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> different >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> features. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> think I remember reading that something - it may >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> been >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Voice >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Over - was >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> localized in about 40 different languages. But I'm >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sure >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Braille >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> support. However, if you can some way implement >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BRLTTY >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ask >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Apple >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to do so >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we may get native foreign language Braille >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> support. I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> think >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Apple >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Linux >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> based, so this should not be too difficult. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Take care >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> James >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "william lomas" >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 11:39 AM >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Voice Over in Snow Leopard >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is there a complete list of new features? i.e. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .do we get new language voices i wonder >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> . new braille support in other alnguages? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> i guess we will not know these details really >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> until >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> product >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> out >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 7 Jul 2009, at 11:29, James & Nash wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It sounds like Snow Leopard is an upgrade. Is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> case? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Fortunately, I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have a copy of 10.5 which I bought last year so >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> so >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> then >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> shouldn't >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be any problem. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Take care >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> James >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Scott Howell" <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 10:25 AM >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Voice Over in Snow Leopard >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe so, but it will be worth upgrading and the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cost is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> so >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unreal, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't make much since to skip this upgrade. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> other >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reasons >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> beyond accessibility to upgrade. I can guarantee >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> $30 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> very small price to pay for the improvements and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> many of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> may >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not have considered or realized. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 7, 2009, at 2:47 AM, william lomas wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> i doubt we get new voices except maybe the ones >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> found >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the i >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> phone. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am going to wait to upgrade i think, what I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> now >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> works >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fine. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> UPgrading won't give us for example, access to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> flash >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> content >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> so >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> no >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> point in me upgrading since a lot of sites I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> use, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> require >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> flash >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> navigation which adobe have not yet >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> incorporated >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> into >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> safari or >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> other web browsers >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 7 Jul 2009, at 02:53, Jenny Kennedy wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yay! I'm very very glad to hear this wonderful >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> news. A >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> little >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bummed I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't have a fancy trackpad. I have heard >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> some of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> iPhone >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> demos >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gestures just sound so cool and fun. I guess >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'll >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> put >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> up >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> old tech. LOL I hope to get an iPhone in the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> future >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> happy >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to wait 'til then to try gestures. Unless my >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> getting a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> new >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> macbook >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> happens first. But as this one is still fairly >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> newish >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'll >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wait. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Who >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> know by the time it comes time for me to get a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> new >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> macbook >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they'll of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> come up with many more new and cool things. : >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> smiley : >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Can't wait 'til SL comes out. I know it's >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not too >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> far >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> off >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sounds so awesome. Am keen to hear any new >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> voices. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Have >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> always >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> liked >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the UK voices. The best thing would be a UK >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> version of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Alex, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> breths and all. I still think that's uber cool >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> how >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Alex >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> voice >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> does >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jenny >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/6/09, Scott Howell <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jenny, first only the Aluminum MacBooks >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> contain >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> multi- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> touch >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> trackpad unless Apple upgrades the MacBook >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> line- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Remember >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> aluminum >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> models are now referred to as the MacBook Pro >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> line. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> SL >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> work >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fine on your model. The most significant >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> requirement >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> must >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> an >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Intel processor since the Power PC chips, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> such >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> found >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> G4/G5 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> machines will not be supported by SL. I'd >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> recommend >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> least >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2Gb ram, but 1Gb will get the job done. The >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> commands, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> issued >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from the trackpad are the same commands you >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> issue >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> currently >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> VO. It is another means to interact with >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the os >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> using >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> VO >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hard to say what the future holds for such a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> trackpad >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> VO. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> point is that if you have heard the iPhone >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> demos, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> get >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> an >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> idea >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of how the trackpad could behave and a little >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> imagination >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> might >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> lead >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you to speculate what Apple could possibly >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> do in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> future. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So, have no fear and prepare to upgrade, it >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> well >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> worth >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 6, 2009, at 7:59 PM, Jenny Kennedy >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Okay. So am I to understand that the macbook >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pro >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> line >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> only >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> line >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that has this fancy mousepad thing? I got my >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> macbook >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> April >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of 08 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and it is the little white one. I adore it >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> been >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> waiting >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> SL to come out. Will SL even work at all on >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sort >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> macbook? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Oh >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm sure the os will work but will VO >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> function >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fancy mousepad thing? Are there keyboard >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> shortcuts >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> do >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> whatever >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doable with the mousepad? Sorry to be so >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> abrupt >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gotta >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> run. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thanks >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> any answers >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> best wishes >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jenny >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/6/09, Claude Renaud <[email protected] >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hello James, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sunday, July 5, 2009, 12:31:19 PM, you >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> JN> Hi everyone, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> JN> I've been reading the new VO features >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Snow >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Leopard. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Where di you read this please ? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Claude Renaud >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>>> >> >> >>> >> > > > --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group. 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