Hi,
Correction: That was Option+Semi-colon for the ellipsis shortcut in
menu commands. Too much multi-tasking before the Apple event!
Cheers,
Esther
On 8 Apr 2010, at 07:00, Nicolai Svendsen wrote:
Hi,
I guess you can use that too. I've always found the audio files and
the text, but I just always forget about that. ANother useful thing.
Regards,
Nic
Skype: Kvalme
MSN Messenger: [email protected]
AIM: cincinster
yahoo Messenger: cin368
Facebook Profile
My Twitter
On Apr 8, 2010, at 6:07 PM, Esther wrote:
Hi Nic and William,
For hot key assignments of service menu items, I use VO-Shift-C to
copy the last phrase to pasteboard, then I usually paste to
TextEdit to check over the command. You can paste directly to the
keyboard assignment, too, but I usually have to backspace/delete
the space after the pasted phrase, so I generally check this in
TextEdit first anyway. Also, I've since learned that some
problematic combinations, like the ellipsis at the end of some menu
commands, can be typed with Command+Semi-colon (on an English input
keyboard, at least).
As for reserving key combinations such as the F-keys with Command,
Control, and Option combinations, I think that you can override
this and make assignments through third party tools like Spark, but
it's probably not a good idea. You potentially get conflicting key
definitions. I suspect these are being reserved for development of
future VoiceOver key definition features.
Interesting discussion, and I also hope that we'll see more
development of multi-lingual features for the Mac.
HTH
Cheers,
Esther
P.S. I've snipped off the parts of the discussion before William's
initial post of VoiceOver features he'd like to see.
On 8 Apr 2010, at 05:17, Nicolai Svendsen wrote:
Hi
Yes, it exists on the phone, but VoiceOver on the Mac does not
have multilingual speech as of yet, at least.
No, Mac OS prior to X had Outspoken, a third-party screen reader.
VoiceOver was introduced in 2004 with the release of 10.4 Tiger.
As for hot keys, you can easily have VoiceOver spell it out for
you. If I had a braille display, I'd probably find a way of fixing
that problem you are having. And, if I can't find it anywhere, at
least I can suggest this too. But until then, I can't provide any
educated guesses. I think a safe assumption, though, is that menu
items, if they are two words or more, are always capitalized. E.G.
Skype's Hang Up. H and U are both capitalized. Hotkeys can also be
assigned to the control key, command and option. Not shift, of
course, as this is the key for capitalizing a character, unless it
is used with conjunction of other keys. The Mac provides function
keys which can perform hardware or software keys. You may want to
go to System Preferences>Keyboard>Keyboard tab, then select for
Mac to use all F1, F2, etc as
The verbosity features are a recent addition. Or, at least, the
detailed verbosity features, including hints, how to speak items
such as buttons, checkboxes, and so-on, not to mention counting
items in lists, on the dock and elsewhere. It is a good idea,
however, to suggest multiple configurations for both braille
verbosity and speech if it is currently nowhere to be found.
Regards,
Nic
On Apr 8, 2010, at 3:44 PM, William Windels wrote:
Hi Nicolai,
What you wrote about the languages, the automatic language
detection on websites, is already available on the iphone and
this works also
wit voice-over I think.
I tought that voiceover was already implemented since version 9
of macos.
But yes, the current version of voiceover is 3.0 and the windows-
screenreaders have a version number 9 or higher.
About the hotkeys for menus, you need to type the exact, case
sensitive, menu-item.
This is not that easy since menu-items are mostly underlined with
dots 7 and8 while reading.
Because of that, you can't see which letter is capital or not.
Also, dots 7 and 8 can be used in editors to mark if a text is
e.g. bold, italic,undelined...
This is not possible when text is always underlined while reading
by the voice.
Some keys are also not allowed for assigning hotkeys to menu-items.
e.g. the f-keys im combination of ctrl, shift, commandm option.
Except the vo-keys, there are not that much f-keys used by the
system in combination with one of this 4 keys.
I am not shore about that but it's my experience.
about the verbosity :
In my opinion, it doesn't make sence to have all things that are
spoken are also on the braille display¸.
e.g.: it's sometimes interesting to hear the tooltip of a
specific element on a website but it's not necessary to see this
info on the braille display'.
also about the message bussy: why should i see this in the
display ¸and , at the same time missiong the information on the
screen.
this are some suggestions...
thanx allot for your answer
best regards,
william
Op 8-apr-2010, om 13:27 heeft Nicolai Svendsen het volgende
geschreven:
Hi,
VoiceOver cannot detect languages because these have not been
implemented. Furthermore, VoiceOver has only been localized
since the release of Snow Leopard. VoiceOver has only been
around since 2004, and that is very important to keep in mind.
Despite that, though, In my opinion it surpasses Windows screen
access in most areas. Flash isn't very important to me, since
you hardly got any feedback even if you could see the controls.
Saying that, the verbosity does provide a huge amount of
configuration, actually. All you'd need, and I'm sure more is
going to be added. In Mac, you don't need silly tooltips to be
spoken when going through elements. Or help balloons. VoiceOver,
or just APple's accessibility policy is different in that, if
you want information, you have to look for it without the screen
reader doing any handholding. This is why I think that the
current level of verbosity configuration is more than sufficient.
When it comes to the selection of text on websites, it works the
same way as it would if it was loaded into a virtual buffer,
which is a downside if you use a Windows screen reader, in that
it has to load it into the buffer after the initial page has
been loaded. This takes longer time than it should. On some
pages, when using the Mac, selecting text works amazingly well,
and on some it does not. I am sure that Apple will address this,
as it is an important feature to perfect.
Keyboard shortcuts can already be assigned to all menu items
within any selected application, as long as the menu title is
written properly and as long as the item to which you wish to
attach a hockey to is in a menu.
It is important to understand that any accessibility delivered
to VoiceOver users depends on Apple's framework, which is good
in that in a lot of cases, the developer is not always aware of
the accessibility of their application. The Cocoa framework
ensures that a lot of applications work out of the box, whereas
WIndows screen readers depend mainly on scripts. Also, that
causes the scripts to break if a change is made to the user
interface. The inability to access Flash is mainly because Adobe
did not want to provide accessibility until now, and even then,
it's supposedly going to take eighteen months, in which case
HTML5 has probably kicked out Flash. And, it'll already work
with VoiceOver.
Regards,
Nic
Skype: Kvalme
MSN Messenger: [email protected]
AIM: cincinster
yahoo Messenger: cin368
Facebook Profile
My Twitter
On Apr 8, 2010, at 1:05 AM, William Windels wrote:
Hello all,
I agree that Apple is doing great efforts to make their
products accessible and I love the mac for most of my tasks but
the mac and the corresponding os are not the only ones on the
market...
They do good things like the integration of their screenreader
in all of their products and because of that , most of the
tasks on the mac are logic.
It gives also a good impulse to the computermarket for blind
people.
I mean e.g. the gestures on the trackpad of a macbook. This is
something new and very interesting feature that they have
created.
Also a great advantage of apple and their accessibility-policy
is the feature that mac-users can give their feedback,
questions and comments to a special address.
I have the experience that they listen to us but of course , it
takes some time.
but, and this is perhaps the other side of implementing
accessibility without paying more,
the mac is missing some features that are available on a winds
pc in combination with most of the screenreaders.
Here , I have a list of things that I miss on a mac:
1- working with flash on websites;
2- automatic language detection on webpages (like on the iphone);
3- configurable representation of controls on the
brailledisplay (this is also good for people that have a little
braille display);
4- creation of a verbosity level where you can define which
messages should be spoken and/or which messages should be shown
on the braille display;
5- setting webspots in voiceover for whole domains (e.g. www.google.be
) in stead of the current viewed webpage (Window-eyes can
handle this);
6- dragging and dropping with the keyboard so that we can also
cut elements in the finder (and actions in other programs)
This is a possibility in voiceover to do that but I am not
shore if it is working and it don't give the same result.
7- Selecting tekst in a browser without complex commando
instructions;
And then also 1 feature about the os:
the system of assigning hockeys for menu-items in the system-
prefferences : tab =keyboard , hotkeys. This system is not
working all the time, not all keys are aloud like function keys
and services can't have a hockey in snow leopard.
I would ask to everybody here to send accessibility one or more
of this things that you find interesting or necessary.
Or you can give also other suggestions of course ;)
If you do so, pls write it in your own words and not just copy
pasting.
Otherwise , they will think that's something like spamming and
perhaps they won't take it serious...
If you have a suggestion/comment to me, pls mail me private:
[email protected]
thanx in advance,
best regards,
William
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
"MacVisionaries" group.
To post to this group, send email to [email protected].
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
[email protected].
For more options, visit this group at
http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
