Yes, that sounds good, and I thought as you. However, it doesn't work that way in practice.
You can pick something from a side bar, and then tap over to the right in order to find the article or what-ever. However, when you start swiping, or if you two-finger swipe down to read from that point on, VO is just as likely to start reading from the top of the page. So, touching is only good for exploring, not for actually picking a place from where to start reading. Sometimes it works, but mostly it doesn't. On the iPhone, you have many screens where controls appear at consistent positions. On the iPad, with the extra screen area, most apps are just filling that extra space up with a browser, where touching doesn't really move your focus to that point like it should, and where you also must often scroll the content area to find what you want. So, you're thinking of the iPad like it will be a big iPhone, with lots of additional screen area for more controls. When, actually, many app developers have just turned it in to a web terminal with a bit of extra bits and pieces to frame the browser view. Browsing with Safari has never been quite as fast for me as the virtual buffer approaches available through the Windows screen readers. Browsing with Safari, while controlling it with touch, is even slower. I can do it, but it isn't the quickest approach out there. The iPad turns every freaking thing in to a web site type experience. I hate that. I don't mean to say that every app is like that. The iWork apps aren't, and neither is iBooks. However, I'd say that over half of the apps that I downloaded that were designed just for the iPad were written by devs that thought that making an iPad version meant that they could just make their app a web application with a local frame of buttons. Bryan -----Original Message----- From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Nicolai Svendsen Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2010 4:18 PM To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Returning my iPad Hi, Still, regardless, I can imagine that it'd be easier to explore the screen. if you frequently visit a particular webpage, you might have the table containing news categories on the left-hand side, and when tapping it, contents might appear in the center or to the right making navigation very swift. I've always loved the exploration part of a touchscreen, and I never swipe anymore. This is why it'd probably be a huge benefit for me to get one because of the size. Exploring, particularly with the iPhone on websites is not the same. Regards, Nic Mobile Me: nic2...@me.com Skype: Kvalme MSN Messenger: nico...@home3.gvdnet.dk AIM: cincinster yahoo Messenger: cin368 Facebook Profile My Twitter On May 5, 2010, at 9:58 PM, Bryan Smart wrote: > Olivia, I like the concept of the four finger swipe for navigating between > sections, but it seems that only a few apps support this. It works on the > home screen. It works in the iWork apps. It works in Safari. However, lots of > iPad apps build their interfaces out of just large web browser views. In > these views, there is no concept of sections. You just have a huge scrolling > page with lots of links. Sometimes, they'll use headings, and I can use the > rotor and up/down swipe to navigate between sections. Quite often, though, > they don't, and, together with the problem of swiping not continuing from > where I last touched, there is a massive amount of swiping required to get > around the screen. Lots of swiping isn't a problem on the iPhone and Touch, > as those are smaller screens that hold less data at once, so there isn't much > on any single screen to swipe through. The iPad screens are very full, though. > > Bryan > > -----Original Message----- > From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com > [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of olivia norman > Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2010 5:53 AM > To: list voiceover > Subject: Re: Returning my iPad > > It's always interesting to get another prospective. I do have a case for my > iPad, so don't have to hold it up at all which helps. Personally, I love the > device, but as with anything, people have differing opinions and I actually > found Brian's experiences interesting and valuable to read. > I find that the four finger flick gesture really helps while moving around > most iPad screens, especially in applications such as mail and safari, this > gesture helps avoid swiping with one finger constantly. I also find that > applications such as iBooks and the iWork applications are wonderful > additions to this device, and afford the user functionality ad productivity > you just don't find on the iPhone. > In my way of thinking, these are two different kinds of devices, which > perform different functions and I use and think of them for completely > different things in my life. > There's also the issue with the iPhone's battery life. I can't for instance, > watch a movie or stream a youtube video for any length of time with out > experiencing significant battery drain. On my iPad, I am able to watch > videos for hours, no problem. > The case is a great, and IMO, needed, extra with the iPad for both blid and > sighted users. It allows for more comfortable use of the iPad and means that > you don't have to hold it or risk it falling. You can purchase it from apple > for about $39.99. > I am sorry to hear the iPad didn't work for you, Brian, and your experience > just shows that not every piece of technology works well for every user. > Thank you for posting this to the list! Have a great day! :) Olivia On May > 5, 2010, at 4:52 AM, Nicolai Svendsen wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> He was saying it was uncomfortable to move around on the larger screen. If >> he has the case and puts it on a table, I'd imagine this would be a lot >> easier. At least, it sure would for me and would give me a better overview >> than having it in my lap, for example. Or, the frequent complaint that is >> often heard is that holding it up is also uncomfortable, which makes sense >> too. >> >> Regards, >> Nic >> Mobile Me: nic2...@me.com >> Skype: Kvalme >> MSN Messenger: nico...@home3.gvdnet.dk >> AIM: cincinster >> yahoo Messenger: cin368 >> Facebook Profile >> My Twitter >> >> On May 5, 2010, at 10:49 AM, Ben Mustill-Rose wrote: >> >>> What would the case solve though? >>> >>> I also have the vo freezing problem on my touch; I expected it to be >>> at least partly fixed on the ipad. >>> >>> On 05/05/2010, Nicolai Svendsen <chojiro1...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> Hi, >>>> >>>> Just one question. >>>> >>>> Why not get the iPad case and put it in there? That just seems like >>>> a logical solution to your dilemma. If you haven't sold it yet, give it >>>> here. >>>> lol >>>> >>>> Really, I've always thought the iPhone was mainly for a consumer. >>>> You can write long documents on it, but it is far from comfortable >>>> and very efficient. Well, you can write really quickly on that >>>> device, but really, it might get tiresome after a while. We will >>>> have Bluetooth keyboard support, though, so that is very exciting. >>>> >>>> I imagine the screen to be exactly the opposite of what you are saying. >>>> Sorry to disagree. I think the larger screen would aid me a great >>>> deal, and the split-screen is just a nifty feature to me. I won't >>>> get an iPad, though, and I have a lot of reasons for that. I'll try >>>> out an iPad at the end of May when they ship internationally, but I'm not >>>> going to be that excited. >>>> >>>> First, what can the iPad do that my iPhone cannot? iWork? Perhaps. >>>> But right now, I don't see myself using an iPad. Technically, the >>>> space I would take up if I hook up a bluetooth keyboard to the iPad >>>> is probably just as much as my Macbook, if a little bit less. The >>>> Macbook is faster, and I need the superior speed. I need to be able >>>> to type blazingly fast, and though I could do that with the iPad >>>> keyboard dock or bluetooth keyboards, I still don't want to carry >>>> those accessories around with me. Of course, that doesn't mean I can't >>>> become very efficient with the on-screen keyboard on the device. >>>> >>>> Secondly, yes, the glare from the iPad's LCD is hard on the eyes >>>> for a few hours. Having to read on the iPad or iPhone for long >>>> periods of time is a pain, and that is really only because it is >>>> bright. IF it was like the Kindle where you still need a lamp to read, >>>> great. >>>> >>>> Third, I just don't think the iPad is right for me. I want >>>> something small like my iPhone that can do all these things >>>> already, and I just can't justify buying an iPad right now. Yeah, >>>> there are probably things the iPhone will be unable to do, but that hasn't >>>> hampered my productivity any. >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> Nic >>>> Mobile Me: nic2...@me.com >>>> Skype: Kvalme >>>> MSN Messenger: nico...@home3.gvdnet.dk >>>> AIM: cincinster >>>> yahoo Messenger: cin368 >>>> Facebook Profile >>>> My Twitter >>>> >>>> On May 5, 2010, at 7:23 AM, Bryan Smart wrote: >>>> >>>>> OK. So, I've had my iPad Wi-Fi+3G for less than a week, and I've >>>>> already decided not to keep it. There is so much of a euphoric >>>>> glow on some of the lists about the wonderfulness of this device. >>>>> I'm the type of person that is always eager to investigate new >>>>> technologies and ways of working, and so expected that I'd agree with the >>>>> generally positive reception. I don't. >>>>> >>>>> I have experience with the iPhone, and, other than the fact that >>>>> it is slower to operate than a device with buttons, and that the >>>>> battery life is terrible when compared to most mobile phones, I >>>>> thought that it was an impressive piece of tech with an advanced approach >>>>> to user interaction. >>>>> >>>>> I was excited about the iPad, and expected it to bring everything >>>>> from an iPhone, only improved. First, the iPad would have a larger >>>>> screen, so it should be possible to more easily move my finger >>>>> directly to the position of known controls in order to speed up >>>>> the operation. Also, the iPad would have a significantly larger >>>>> battery than the iPhone, so I could spend hours using apps, even >>>>> wireless apps, without having to worry about draining the power away. >>>>> >>>>> The only universally great thing that I can say about the iPad is >>>>> that the battery is spectacular. With the screen brightness set to >>>>> low, it runs for a very long time. I've spent hours streaming >>>>> movies via Netflix over 3G, and the battery just keeps on going. >>>>> >>>>> Unfortunately, that's where it all ends. It isn't that I think >>>>> that the tech behind the iPad is necessarily bad. If you want this >>>>> experience, though, as a blind person, you're better off with an iPhone. >>>>> >>>>> Why? Well, let's compare the iPad to the iPhone 3GS. >>>>> >>>>> The iPad has a larger screen. If you're sighted, this is great for >>>>> watching video. Watching movies on a tiny phone screen has got to >>>>> be an eye strain. Blind people don't watch movies, and we can >>>>> listen to them just fine on an iPad or iPhone speaker. >>>>> >>>>> I thought that the larger screen would help with VoiceOver, but, >>>>> actually, it makes things worse. When you work an iPhone, placing >>>>> your finger at different positions on the screen only requires >>>>> wrist movement. The iPad screen is huge when compared to the >>>>> iPhone, and you must move your entire arm in order to navigate the >>>>> screen. This can become tiring after hours of computing, because >>>>> your arm can rarely rest on anything. If you don't hold your arm >>>>> up, with your fingers angled down, you're likely to bump the >>>>> screen with part of your wrist or forearm, causing VoiceOver's >>>>> focus to jump to some random position on the screen. This is >>>>> particularly frustrating because there is so much content on an >>>>> iPad screen. If you navigate through controls by swiping, you'll >>>>> be swiping and swiping and swiping and swiping to get to where >>>>> you'd like. Of course, you can directly explore with your finger, >>>>> but I've noticed that, in several places (like the App Store and >>>>> Safari), tapping somewhere doesn't necessarily mean that swiping >>>>> will continue from that point. In many places, I'll tap at a point >>>>> on the screen, but, when I start swiping, VoiceOver will always >>>>> start from the top of the screen. So, in those situations, if you >>>>> accidentally touch the screen with some other skin while swiping, or if >>>>> VoiceOver mistakenly interprets a swipe as a tap, then you'll lose your >>>>> place, and need to start from the top of the screen. >>>>> In the App Store in particular, I've swiped myself to frustration. >>>>> >>>>> The size of the screen is also not convenient for holding the iPad >>>>> like you would the iPhone. It must rest on your lap or a table. >>>>> And, with me pushing and tapping on it with both hands, I've had >>>>> some situations where it has nearly slid off of my lap. With the >>>>> screen being made of glass, that is not a great thought to ponder. >>>>> So, I think that the screen size is not only wasted on blind users, but >>>>> is also a drawback. >>>>> >>>>> The on-screen keyboard is a bit nicer to use on a large screen. >>>>> However, the touch-typing mode makes even one-handed typing on a >>>>> small screen a breeze. Besides that, the larger screen meant that >>>>> a lot more arm motion was required to type on an iPad. I tried the >>>>> two-handed typing approach in landscape mode, but find that, no >>>>> matter how well you place your hands, typing is very mistake prone. >>>>> For anyone that finds it hard to type for extended periods of time >>>>> on the iPhone, you can use the iPad keyboard dock with it when the next >>>>> iPhone OS comes out. >>>>> >>>>> VoiceOver is worse on the iPad. I'll just put my flame retardant >>>>> suit on right now for the hordes of people that will respond and >>>>> tell me how I'm wrong, how wonderful it is, and how it must be me. >>>>> Well, I've used an iPhone extensively, and I've used the touch >>>>> gestures on my MacBook Pro a lot, so I think that I'm pretty >>>>> familiar with how everything is supposed to work. On the iPad, for >>>>> gestures to work, I must over-act them. On my MacBook or iPhone, a >>>>> little flick of my finger is enough to indicate that I'd like to >>>>> move to the next item. On the iPad, I must make a huge swipe, >>>>> extending a few inches. Small flicks will work, sometimes, but >>>>> VoiceOver is very likely to just interpret the flick as a tap, and >>>>> jump my focus. As I've said before, given how huge the screen is, and how >>>>> the control order is broken in several important places, this is >>>>> extremely frustrating. >>>>> Having to make huge swipes means that my whole arm is involved, >>>>> and swiping and swiping and swiping with your whole arm will >>>>> really make your forearm sore after a few hours. Sometimes, the >>>>> screen won't even register that I touched or swiped. The iPhone screen >>>>> seems much more sensitive. >>>>> >>>>> The speech glitches at high speed. At 90% or above, Samantha can't >>>>> say "search", and other words, without chopping off the ends. >>>>> >>>>> And, my largest complaint about VoiceOver on the iPad. It doesn't >>>>> recognize, in most cases, when the screen updates. This seems to >>>>> be most noticeable on screens that use HTML/web content. Say that >>>>> you are in the App Store, or Safari, and you tap a link. You know >>>>> that a new page/screen must have loaded. Sometimes you'll hear the >>>>> audio cue indicating that the load completed, sometimes not. >>>>> However, most always, if you start swiping, you'll realize that >>>>> you're reviewing material from the old page. You must tap >>>>> somewhere on the screen for VoiceOver to realize that, in fact, >>>>> the screen has changed. This is annoying for purposes of situation and >>>>> orientation. >>>>> >>>>> Here is how it should work. You double-tap a control. You wait. >>>>> You hear the completed audio cue, and VoiceOver speaks the first >>>>> item on the screen (which now has focus). Now, you can either >>>>> start swiping through controls, explore the screen with your >>>>> finger, or two-finger-swipe down to start reading the screen. >>>>> >>>>> This is how it works, though. You double-tap a control. You wait, >>>>> and wait and wait. You don't get any feedback about what is >>>>> happening, so you start exploring the screen with your finger. If >>>>> the screen hasn't finished loading yet, then VoiceOver will either >>>>> repeatedly click at you, or else you'll hear absolutely nothing >>>>> (because VoiceOver is frozen up). Once the screen finishes >>>>> loading, all of that tapping and touching that you did while >>>>> VoiceOver was frozen will be suddenly processed, and VoiceOver >>>>> will start going crazy with clicking and speaking fragments. Now, >>>>> you aren't sure where you are, so you must four-finger-swipe up to get to >>>>> the beginning of the screen, then start exploring. >>>>> >>>>> Another way that this can work out is that you double-tap a >>>>> control, and VoiceOver will say something (supposedly the first >>>>> control on the new screen "cancel button selected", or similar). >>>>> When you start swiping, though, you'll hear the contents from the >>>>> last screen. So, you first tap somewhere on the screen to force >>>>> VoiceOver to realize that the contents have changed, then >>>>> four-finger-swipe up to go to the beginning of the screen, then, finally, >>>>> start exploring. >>>>> >>>>> Honestly, this is ridiculous. It is hard to believe that Apple >>>>> couldn't catch such a problem. I guess that web support had >>>>> minimal testing. Lots of apps use imbedded web content, though, so >>>>> this happens in all sorts of apps from Wonder Radio to Net Flix. >>>>> >>>>> As a final VoiceOver thought, I've noticed that the iPad is >>>>> experiencing a problem that the iPhone had early on in its life. >>>>> For those of you with an iPad, lock the screen. Now, put your ear >>>>> up next to the speaker. Hear that hiss. Now, put your iPad down >>>>> for >>>>> 5 minutes and come back. Still hear that hiss? That is the sound >>>>> of your iPad's audio hardware constantly running and draining your >>>>> battery. So, while the iPad's battery life is impressive in a >>>>> continuous run (like watching movies back to back), it sucks in a >>>>> similar way to the iPhone where you'll go to sleep with a full >>>>> battery, and wake up with 70% or less. There is no reason for that >>>>> on an iPad, since the iPad isn't doing sync for Visual Voicemail >>>>> and all of the other AT&T phone to tower chatter. That open speaker, >>>>> though, is probably the cause of most of the drain. >>>>> >>>>> I'm further discouraged to hear that the iPad won't be receiving >>>>> an OS update until the Fall. So, I suppose that these VoiceOver >>>>> issues will stand for at least 4 or 5 months. There will be a new >>>>> iPhone, and a new version of the OS for everyone else, in about a >>>>> month. A major OS update almost certainly means an update of VoiceOver. >>>>> >>>>> So, in the final analysis, the larger screen makes the iPad harder >>>>> to work for me, and VoiceOver has more problems than on an iPhone. >>>>> The larger battery is nice, but that isn't enough. In my mind, the >>>>> iPhone is all the iPad that a blind user needs. >>>>> >>>>> If you are thinking of returning yours, better decide fast. You >>>>> only have >>>>> 14 days after receiving your iPad to return it, and, even then, >>>>> you must pay a 10% restocking fee. >>>>> >>>>> The iPad is an interesting device, but I'd just rather use an >>>>> iPhone, I think. >>>>> >>>>> Bryan >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>>> >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "MacVisionaries" group. >> To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "MacVisionaries" group. > To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "MacVisionaries" group. > To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group. 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