wth Shawn? The bug of the nuance voices isn't a vocalizer bug, cause on other 
platforms it doesn't exists.
Apple does something weird with email addresses and urls to give it to the tts 
engine.

What I conclude from your reaction is that you find no bugs in voiceover at all 
and so intermidiate updates aren't necessary.
Let me tell you in all respect, I don't mean that VoiceOver have to be build by 
an other company, but a faster release cycle for voiceOver in particular should 
be very appriciated.
A scren reader is as good as the underlying accessibility layer. If the 
information needed isn't provided the need to find workarounds etc.


Take a look at talkbak for example there are several tb updates with bug fixes 
and new features without having to upgrade to a hole new os.

It's the same like saying, ok the issues with apple mail, you have to wait till 
a new release next yar to get the annoying bugs fixed for imap services for 
example?
How many users should they lose with this approache?

Whatever just my 2 cents


On Tue, Nov 05, 2013 at 02:45:31AM -0600, BBS wrote:
> I gotta interject here because you’re talking about voices. Those Dutch and 
> English voices you’re talking about aren’t made by Apple. These are Vocalizer 
> Expressive voices which are made by Nuance. So therefore, Apple can’t do 
> anything with these voices because Nuance is in charge of them. As for your 
> other comment, I don’t quite know what you mean by Apple should make 
> individual bundles for Voiceover, but it sounds to me like you want Apple to 
> make Voiceover just like Jaws or Window-Eyes. I’ve said this before and I’ll 
> say that again, the day that Apple does that is the day I’ll stop using a 
> computer. I want my screenreader experience to be as fast and responsive as 
> it has been and if I want a piece of crap screenreader I’ll use Windows. 
> Seriously, I don’t know why Voiceover not having updates is an issue?
> 
> Shawn
> Sent From My White Mac Book
> 
> On Nov 5, 2013, at 2:23 AM, Peter Durieux <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > the thing is, you can't compare vo with an app for office stuff.
> > the vo behaviour is the same like on other platforms.
> > Microsoft, such as others, gnome for example, provide accessibility 
> > information in their components.
> > Jaws / Window-Eyes or orca on linux does the same as voiceover, it reads 
> > the accessibility information and does something usefull.
> > 
> > Therefor, it should be geat if apple decides to bundle in a separate 
> > package. With a separate package, bugfixes will find their way faster to 
> > the enduser.
> > 
> > ON microsoft you have naratoor, of a point of view it seems the same like 
> > voiceover, but yeah.
> > 
> > The text-t-speech voices are packaged in different bundles, but yeah in the 
> > way of Apple thinking. It is possible to rollout an update with bugfixes, 
> > but sadly it isn't the fact.
> > We have an tts bug since Lion with the dutch speaking voices, the same we 
> > had on ios4 that was fixed in ios 5.
> > the english tts had been fixed to ml, but still in 10.9 we've got the bug 
> > in some languages.
> > 
> > It is realy a shame on Apple or they don't care about the market outside us.
> > 
> > Just my 2 cents
> > 
> > 
> > On Mon, Nov 04, 2013 at 01:24:00PM -0700, Tim Kilburn wrote:
> >> Hi,
> >> 
> >> You are correct in that VoiceOver can have bugs that are independent of 
> >> the Accessibility layer.  The issue, in my opinion, though is that 
> >> VoiceOver is not really an app in the same sense as iTunes or Microsoft 
> >> Office etc.  The MacOS is not available without VoiceOver.  You do not 
> >> install VoiceOver after the fact. You cannot install your MacOS without VO 
> >> being there as well.  VoiceOver is a screenreader service woven into the 
> >> MacOS thus difficult to independently update.
> >> 
> >> Later…
> >> 
> >> Tim Kilburn
> >> Fort McMurray, AB Canada
> >> 
> >> On Nov 4, 2013, at 8:48 AM, Peter Durieux <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> 
> >>> you have:
> >>> - the accessibility layer itself (compontents of the os that provide 
> >>> accessibility information)
> >>> - voiceover screen that interacts with the accessibility layer.
> >>> 
> >>> VoiceOver can like other programs have bugs that has nothing to do with 
> >>> the underlying accessibility layer of the os.
> >>> 
> >>> just my 2 cents
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> On Thu, Oct 31, 2013 at 07:13:55AM -0600, Tim Kilburn wrote:
> >>>> Hi,
> >>>> 
> >>>> The issue with automatic updates to VoiceOver has been skirted around 
> >>>> here but not clearly enough in my opinion.  VoiceOver is not just a 
> >>>> bolted on app to the MacOS, it is a part of the OS itself.  While you 
> >>>> could update specific code within the screenreader service, the majority 
> >>>> of fixes actually are within the coding of the system itself.  That is, 
> >>>> the way that either the OS handles a process or the method by which 
> >>>> Apple or third party apps handle system resources often cause the 
> >>>> problems we have with the VO interface.  The use of custom elements 
> >>>> within apps is outside the scope and of VO updates but, when, addressed 
> >>>> affect VO accessibility.  So, what I’m saying, is that I don’t believe 
> >>>> that updates to VO can necessarily be easily separated from OS updates 
> >>>> other than through “Supplemental” sorts of things.
> >>>> 
> >>>> JMO.
> >>>> 
> >>>> Later…
> >>>> 
> >>>> Tim Kilburn
> >>>> Fort McMurray, AB Canada
> >>>> 
> >>>> On Oct 31, 2013, at 3:17 AM, mario navarro <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>>> 
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> no, what I said, is that the voice over also has bugs independently of 
> >>>>> apps.
> >>>>> sorry but I do not think that way .
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> I only want the best for the voice over, I'm not comparing windows and 
> >>>>> mac.
> >>>>> please do not misunderstand me .
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> cheers.
> >>>>> Em 31/10/2013 08:49, BBS escreveu:
> >>>>>> I can tell you my answer right now. Voiceover doesn’t need to be like 
> >>>>>> Jaws or Window-Eyes updating all the time. Even if Voiceover were 
> >>>>>> updated constantly, that wouldn’t solve anything. The apps that have 
> >>>>>> been inaccessible will remain inaccessible until the app developers 
> >>>>>> fix those issues themselves. And as far as Voiceover having bugs in 
> >>>>>> the app, hate to say this, but you’ve pretty much said your problem 
> >>>>>> yourself, that the apps are the problem and not Voiceover. So no, 
> >>>>>> Voiceover doesn’t need automatic updates. We don’t need to go through 
> >>>>>> the same hell we go through with Windows screen readers.
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> Shawn
> >>>>>> Sent From My White Mac Book
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> On Oct 31, 2013, at 3:29 AM, mario navarro <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> hi nicholas.
> >>>>>>> I know that most times the problems are the apps, apps are standard 
> >>>>>>> sustema osx, or other companies.
> >>>>>>> but the voice over also has some bugs in certain apps that  to be 
> >>>>>>> fixed.
> >>>>>>> The voice over is not immune to bugs.
> >>>>>>> we all know that screen readers have bugs whatever they are.
> >>>>>>> and also has voice over.
> >>>>>>> It would also automatic updates for new features.
> >>>>>>> nicholas ok, if the group agrees with the automatic updates, I want 
> >>>>>>> you to write the ticket for me to send.
> >>>>>>> I'll be super grateful.
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> thanks friend nicholas.
> >>>>>>> cheers.
> >>>>>>> Em 31/10/2013 06:29, Nicholas Parsons escreveu:
> >>>>>>>> Seems to me Apple could push out updates to VoiceOver if they wanted 
> >>>>>>>> to, just as they push other updates for raw camera compatibility and 
> >>>>>>>> the like, even though those aren't separate applications.
> >>>>>>>> More frequent updates to VoiceOver would be good. However, the main 
> >>>>>>>> accessibility issues we have are not problems with VoiceOver, but 
> >>>>>>>> typically problems in other apps. It's those apps that need to be 
> >>>>>>>> updated to improve accessibility, not VoiceOver. For instance, in 
> >>>>>>>> Mountain Lion it's iBooks, Pages, Mail, Calendar and Finder which 
> >>>>>>>> need updates, not VoiceOver. Well, there are a couple of issues with 
> >>>>>>>> some of the voices messing some things up, but that's a different 
> >>>>>>>> issue as it's Nuance that needs to address those issues.
> >>>>>>>> Having said all this, Mario, I'd be happy to write the email for you 
> >>>>>>>> if you like, and then you can send it from your own email account. 
> >>>>>>>> I'll wait and hear what other people on this list have to say first, 
> >>>>>>>> however, as it's probably wise to take on board other feedback.
> >>>>>>>> Cheers,
> >>>>>>>> Nic
> >>>>>>>> 
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