> On 11 May 2015, at 15:01, Alexander Shorin <[email protected]> wrote: > > Sorry, for intruding into your conversation, but let me throw you a > thought I have. > > Apache CouchDB, as it was said, is a volunteer project, where each > committer takes care about what they personally likes or need for own > business: Cloudnant contributors cares about cluster feature and > stable core, Jan cares about simplicity of usage CouchDB with no > confusing things, Robert Kowalski like to work mostly on frontend part > of the project - sorry if I didn't explain precisely position and > motivation of the each, but it doesn't matter. What I want to say, is > everybody works on what they likes/need/feels important. > > Obliviously, couchapp feature lacks of love, care and attention for > quite long of time and there is no explicit leader to work on this > feature and evangelist to promote. If couchapps feature is critical > for Smileyupps business and they have ideas how to improve it and > resources to maintain it, why not to take Cloudant as an example and > become a contributor? I think, with such plan, everybody will win: > CouchDB will get more powerful couchapps, Smileyupps will be able to > be more attractive for their clientèle. And by the way, you eventually > may help to solve confusion around couchapps. > > Sounds like business-driven development, but I'd like to think about > it as about inventions into open source for better business. After > all, business successful features mostly may receive warm welcome by a > community, while business specific will get cut off in order to have > more general solution that fits most in the end. > > Otherwise I see whole this discussion as arguing of two people where > first continues keeps saying "we need couchapps! couchapps are cool!" > and the second one responses "couchapps are full of flaws and > confusion!". Without the one who will enter and say "Hey! Calm down, > I'll sort all the problems" there wouldn't be any good solution and > couchapps will die as technology by timeout: era of HTTP/2 is coming > which going to change a lot of things, while I don't mention existed > websockets. > > So what do you think about?
I think I agree 100% with what you are saying, thanks Alexander :) Best Jan -- > > -- > ,,,^..^,,, > > > On Mon, May 11, 2015 at 10:18 AM, Giovanni Lenzi <[email protected]> > wrote: >> Hi Joan, thanks for your useful reminders. I think you hit the main point. >> >> 2015-05-09 20:26 GMT+02:00 Joan Touzet <[email protected]>: >> >>> *** TL;DR: the people who are willing to spend anywhere from >>> thousands to millions of dollars on a CouchDB-based solution aren't >>> interested in CouchApps. I think the discussion to date is missing >>> this, and as such, is entirely unrepresentative of the current >>> market for Apache CouchDB. >>> >> >> >> >>> The answer is that there are practically no customers of Cloudant/IBM >>> who are banking on CouchApps for any serious need. Every client that >>> I can think of - meaning they have a dedicated cluster, and aren't >>> using the shared cluster service .... >>> >> Cloudant built out a document-level (and field-level!) security >>> solution for one customer, about two years ago now. While there was >>> initial interest, performance considerations lead to the solution >>> being backburnered for further consideration. Even in that situation, >>> CouchApps weren't the primary concern -- database-level enforcement >>> of security rules *was*. >>> >> >> From what you cc'ed and then say, it seems that CouchDB market should be >> strictly the same as Cloudant market.. Is it this what Mike and you would >> like to say? And if yes, why? >> >> Why an Apache project, should strictly target companies with thousand to >> millions dollars? >> Is this allowed by "the apache way"? >> Are there other Apache examples of company-driven project? >> >> Sorry for all these questions but I am very very ignorant in this. I >> thought a project should only be driven from its users as its most >> important participants. >> >> Thanks in advance for your useful answers. >> >> >> >>> >>> Within Cloudant, perhaps Simon Metson was the primary proponent of >>> using CouchApps for serious purposes. He used them in the "For >>> Developers" section of the website to help demonstrate various key >>> features of the platform, including the new MongoDB-inspired Mango >>> feature that's now a part of CouchDB 2.0. Diana Thayer (@garbados) >>> picked up on this and built a documentation framework on top of >>> CouchApps. This, to me, is perhaps the ideal use of CouchApps: >>> unsecured content, read-only, displayed in different formats based >>> upon what the end user needs, and self-hosted by CouchDB (so you >>> can view the product's documentation using the product itself). >>> More information on this use is at: >>> >>> >>> https://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/couchdb-dev/201410.mbox/%3C28603443.66.1414446738764.JavaMail.joant@Joans-MacBook-Pro.local%3E >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Miles Fidelman" <[email protected]> >>>> To: [email protected] >>>> Sent: Friday, May 8, 2015 11:21:28 AM >>>> Subject: Re: the future of couchapp >>>> >>>> Let's be clear. >>>> (Good) marketing isn't about selling a solution to folks who don't >>>> have >>>> a problem in the first place, it's about it's identifying problems >>>> for >>>> which we offer a solution. >>>> >>>> And.. it occurs to me that Cloudant has been doing market research >>>> and >>>> "real" marketing - perhaps some folks from Cloudant might share some >>>> findings related to CouchDB (as opposed to those that might relate to >>>> their commercial extensions and services)? >>>> >>>> Miles Fidelman >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Giovanni Lenzi wrote: >>>>>> translates user@ decisions in "how to drive them to the public"? >>>>> or maybe better how to drive dev@ implemented features to the >>>>> public ? >>>>> >>>>> 2015-05-08 16:57 GMT+02:00 Giovanni Lenzi <[email protected]>: >>>>> >>>>>> Got it, Joan. Thanks for the useful reminder, considered I am a >>>>>> total >>>>>> newbie here, I definitely don't know how decision-making process >>>>>> is driven. >>>>>> >>>>>> We will cut the "features" part from this discussion then and take >>>>>> it to >>>>>> the devs@ list >>>>>> >>>>>> Here we should then focus on @jan's request about the story for >>>>>> couchapps.. given that until 2 days ago that was somehow uncertain >>>>>> >>>>>> But I think too this is more a user@ topic... isn't maybe >>>>>> marketing more >>>>>> appropriate to translates user@ decisions in "how to drive them to >>>>>> the >>>>>> public"? If you all agree with that, you can move this discussion >>>>>> to user@ >>>>>> or dev@, don't know what is preferable. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> 2015-05-08 15:56 GMT+02:00 Joan Touzet <[email protected]>: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> PMC hat on... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Reminding you *again* that we should not be using the MARKETING >>>>>>> list to >>>>>>> discuss new FEATURES and functionality for Apache CouchDB. We are >>>>>>> not >>>>>>> like a company where marketing makes up what they want to do, and >>>>>>> development is forced to implement it. While it's a good idea to >>>>>>> have a >>>>>>> feedback loop between marketing and development, I am especially >>>>>>> keen to >>>>>>> not see Apache CouchDB turn into a marketing-driven development >>>>>>> effort. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If you are proposing new CouchDB features, please make those >>>>>>> proposals >>>>>>> on the dev@ mailing list. And if you are willing to *develop* and >>>>>>> *support* those functions - even better. Current CouchDB >>>>>>> development >>>>>>> bandwidth is extremely limited, and would best be served by >>>>>>> helping you >>>>>>> to understand the current design's constraints, and the >>>>>>> difficulties >>>>>>> that may be inherent in what you ask for. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best regards, >>>>>>> Joan >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>> From: "Giovanni Lenzi" <[email protected]> >>>>>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, May 8, 2015 4:05:12 AM >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: the future of couchapp >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> A service-trigger feature could be one of the new features of >>>>>>>>> Couch >>>>>>>>> apps. >>>>>>>> if possible, would be awesome :) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> some clear design goals and a very limited set of features to >>>>>>>>> add >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> CouchDB ddocs and focus on an in-browser tool (add features to >>>>>>>> Fauxton) >>>>>>>> that removes the need for new developers to learn git and build >>>>>>>> tools >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Giovanni Lenzi >>>>>> www.smileupps.com >>>>>> Smileupps Cloud App Store >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. >>>> In practice, there is. .... Yogi Berra >>>> >>>> >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Giovanni Lenzi >> www.smileupps.com >> Smileupps Cloud App Store -- Professional Support for Apache CouchDB: http://www.neighbourhood.ie/couchdb-support/
