-- ,,,^..^,,,
On Tue, May 12, 2015 at 4:48 PM, Giovanni Lenzi <[email protected]> wrote: > Thanks Alexander for you thougths. They have been very useful for us to > have a feeling of the current developer team status and preferences. We > were simply not aware of such this situation. > > Unfortunately currently we don't have resources and erlang competences to > join couchdb team. We have full respect for Cloudant and developers working > in Cloudant and I understand everyone wants to work on what he cares most, > even regardless of marketing considerations to increase interest in the > project and ultimately the committers adoption rate. > > My starting intention with the thread 'couchdb articles, pills, tutorials' > wasn't absolutely to bore anyone with such this kind of discussion. I'm > very sorry for that, but in the end, I think it has been also useful to > define both couchdb and smileupps' plans for the future. > > I'm very happy jan likes tim black's proposal to market both "couchdb" and > "couchapps" separately and clearly, to allow them both to grow. We found it > very very good to prevent confusion and from a marketing perspective too. > > Having said this, even if currently we can't do more than what we are > already doing to grab users' interest, I'm still looking forward to work > together with you in the future, in a way or another. > > Thanks all for your patience and this useful discussion, > > Best Regards, > > Smileupps Team > > > Il giorno 11/mag/2015 18:47, "Jan Lehnardt" <[email protected]> ha scritto: > >> >> > On 11 May 2015, at 15:01, Alexander Shorin <[email protected]> wrote: >> > >> > Sorry, for intruding into your conversation, but let me throw you a >> > thought I have. >> > >> > Apache CouchDB, as it was said, is a volunteer project, where each >> > committer takes care about what they personally likes or need for own >> > business: Cloudnant contributors cares about cluster feature and >> > stable core, Jan cares about simplicity of usage CouchDB with no >> > confusing things, Robert Kowalski like to work mostly on frontend part >> > of the project - sorry if I didn't explain precisely position and >> > motivation of the each, but it doesn't matter. What I want to say, is >> > everybody works on what they likes/need/feels important. >> > >> > Obliviously, couchapp feature lacks of love, care and attention for >> > quite long of time and there is no explicit leader to work on this >> > feature and evangelist to promote. If couchapps feature is critical >> > for Smileyupps business and they have ideas how to improve it and >> > resources to maintain it, why not to take Cloudant as an example and >> > become a contributor? I think, with such plan, everybody will win: >> > CouchDB will get more powerful couchapps, Smileyupps will be able to >> > be more attractive for their clientèle. And by the way, you eventually >> > may help to solve confusion around couchapps. >> > >> > Sounds like business-driven development, but I'd like to think about >> > it as about inventions into open source for better business. After >> > all, business successful features mostly may receive warm welcome by a >> > community, while business specific will get cut off in order to have >> > more general solution that fits most in the end. >> > >> > Otherwise I see whole this discussion as arguing of two people where >> > first continues keeps saying "we need couchapps! couchapps are cool!" >> > and the second one responses "couchapps are full of flaws and >> > confusion!". Without the one who will enter and say "Hey! Calm down, >> > I'll sort all the problems" there wouldn't be any good solution and >> > couchapps will die as technology by timeout: era of HTTP/2 is coming >> > which going to change a lot of things, while I don't mention existed >> > websockets. >> > >> > So what do you think about? >> >> I think I agree 100% with what you are saying, thanks Alexander :) >> >> Best >> Jan >> -- >> >> > >> > -- >> > ,,,^..^,,, >> > >> > >> > On Mon, May 11, 2015 at 10:18 AM, Giovanni Lenzi <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >> Hi Joan, thanks for your useful reminders. I think you hit the main >> point. >> >> >> >> 2015-05-09 20:26 GMT+02:00 Joan Touzet <[email protected]>: >> >> >> >>> *** TL;DR: the people who are willing to spend anywhere from >> >>> thousands to millions of dollars on a CouchDB-based solution aren't >> >>> interested in CouchApps. I think the discussion to date is missing >> >>> this, and as such, is entirely unrepresentative of the current >> >>> market for Apache CouchDB. >> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> The answer is that there are practically no customers of Cloudant/IBM >> >>> who are banking on CouchApps for any serious need. Every client that >> >>> I can think of - meaning they have a dedicated cluster, and aren't >> >>> using the shared cluster service .... >> >>> >> >> Cloudant built out a document-level (and field-level!) security >> >>> solution for one customer, about two years ago now. While there was >> >>> initial interest, performance considerations lead to the solution >> >>> being backburnered for further consideration. Even in that situation, >> >>> CouchApps weren't the primary concern -- database-level enforcement >> >>> of security rules *was*. >> >>> >> >> >> >> From what you cc'ed and then say, it seems that CouchDB market should be >> >> strictly the same as Cloudant market.. Is it this what Mike and you >> would >> >> like to say? And if yes, why? >> >> >> >> Why an Apache project, should strictly target companies with thousand to >> >> millions dollars? >> >> Is this allowed by "the apache way"? >> >> Are there other Apache examples of company-driven project? >> >> >> >> Sorry for all these questions but I am very very ignorant in this. I >> >> thought a project should only be driven from its users as its most >> >> important participants. >> >> >> >> Thanks in advance for your useful answers. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> >> >>> Within Cloudant, perhaps Simon Metson was the primary proponent of >> >>> using CouchApps for serious purposes. He used them in the "For >> >>> Developers" section of the website to help demonstrate various key >> >>> features of the platform, including the new MongoDB-inspired Mango >> >>> feature that's now a part of CouchDB 2.0. Diana Thayer (@garbados) >> >>> picked up on this and built a documentation framework on top of >> >>> CouchApps. This, to me, is perhaps the ideal use of CouchApps: >> >>> unsecured content, read-only, displayed in different formats based >> >>> upon what the end user needs, and self-hosted by CouchDB (so you >> >>> can view the product's documentation using the product itself). >> >>> More information on this use is at: >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> https://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/couchdb-dev/201410.mbox/%3C28603443.66.1414446738764.JavaMail.joant@Joans-MacBook-Pro.local%3E >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >> >>>> From: "Miles Fidelman" <[email protected]> >> >>>> To: [email protected] >> >>>> Sent: Friday, May 8, 2015 11:21:28 AM >> >>>> Subject: Re: the future of couchapp >> >>>> >> >>>> Let's be clear. >> >>>> (Good) marketing isn't about selling a solution to folks who don't >> >>>> have >> >>>> a problem in the first place, it's about it's identifying problems >> >>>> for >> >>>> which we offer a solution. >> >>>> >> >>>> And.. it occurs to me that Cloudant has been doing market research >> >>>> and >> >>>> "real" marketing - perhaps some folks from Cloudant might share some >> >>>> findings related to CouchDB (as opposed to those that might relate to >> >>>> their commercial extensions and services)? >> >>>> >> >>>> Miles Fidelman >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> Giovanni Lenzi wrote: >> >>>>>> translates user@ decisions in "how to drive them to the public"? >> >>>>> or maybe better how to drive dev@ implemented features to the >> >>>>> public ? >> >>>>> >> >>>>> 2015-05-08 16:57 GMT+02:00 Giovanni Lenzi <[email protected]>: >> >>>>> >> >>>>>> Got it, Joan. Thanks for the useful reminder, considered I am a >> >>>>>> total >> >>>>>> newbie here, I definitely don't know how decision-making process >> >>>>>> is driven. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> We will cut the "features" part from this discussion then and take >> >>>>>> it to >> >>>>>> the devs@ list >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Here we should then focus on @jan's request about the story for >> >>>>>> couchapps.. given that until 2 days ago that was somehow uncertain >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> But I think too this is more a user@ topic... isn't maybe >> >>>>>> marketing more >> >>>>>> appropriate to translates user@ decisions in "how to drive them to >> >>>>>> the >> >>>>>> public"? If you all agree with that, you can move this discussion >> >>>>>> to user@ >> >>>>>> or dev@, don't know what is preferable. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> 2015-05-08 15:56 GMT+02:00 Joan Touzet <[email protected]>: >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>>> Hi all, >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> PMC hat on... >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> Reminding you *again* that we should not be using the MARKETING >> >>>>>>> list to >> >>>>>>> discuss new FEATURES and functionality for Apache CouchDB. We are >> >>>>>>> not >> >>>>>>> like a company where marketing makes up what they want to do, and >> >>>>>>> development is forced to implement it. While it's a good idea to >> >>>>>>> have a >> >>>>>>> feedback loop between marketing and development, I am especially >> >>>>>>> keen to >> >>>>>>> not see Apache CouchDB turn into a marketing-driven development >> >>>>>>> effort. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> If you are proposing new CouchDB features, please make those >> >>>>>>> proposals >> >>>>>>> on the dev@ mailing list. And if you are willing to *develop* and >> >>>>>>> *support* those functions - even better. Current CouchDB >> >>>>>>> development >> >>>>>>> bandwidth is extremely limited, and would best be served by >> >>>>>>> helping you >> >>>>>>> to understand the current design's constraints, and the >> >>>>>>> difficulties >> >>>>>>> that may be inherent in what you ask for. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> Best regards, >> >>>>>>> Joan >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >> >>>>>>>> From: "Giovanni Lenzi" <[email protected]> >> >>>>>>>> To: [email protected] >> >>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, May 8, 2015 4:05:12 AM >> >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: the future of couchapp >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> A service-trigger feature could be one of the new features of >> >>>>>>>>> Couch >> >>>>>>>>> apps. >> >>>>>>>> if possible, would be awesome :) >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> some clear design goals and a very limited set of features to >> >>>>>>>>> add >> >>>>>>>>> to >> >>>>>>>> CouchDB ddocs and focus on an in-browser tool (add features to >> >>>>>>>> Fauxton) >> >>>>>>>> that removes the need for new developers to learn git and build >> >>>>>>>> tools >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> -- >> >>>>>> Giovanni Lenzi >> >>>>>> www.smileupps.com >> >>>>>> Smileupps Cloud App Store >> >>>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> -- >> >>>> In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. >> >>>> In practice, there is. .... Yogi Berra >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Giovanni Lenzi >> >> www.smileupps.com >> >> Smileupps Cloud App Store >> >> -- >> Professional Support for Apache CouchDB: >> http://www.neighbourhood.ie/couchdb-support/ >> >>
