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Chris: "Currently the YPG is resisting the Turkish invasion of Afrin. Turkey is increasingly acting like an imperialist power, so we can say that the YPG is resisting Turkish imperialism. By contrast, the HTS is offering no resistance whatsoever to Turkish imperialism." Let me say to both Chris and Michael (RCIT): it will be a frustrating journey trying to focus on who is resisting which "imperialism", and it is not the decisive factor, because everyone is manouevering for survival in Syria. Now, if Chris sees Turkey as an imperialist power (because it "acts" like one, which does not sound very scientific to me), then certainly, at very least Iran and Saudi Arabia are imperialist in the region, though I prefer the term sub-imperialist for all three. So if the YPG is resisting Turkish "imperialism", while collaborating with US and Russian imperialism throughout the war, then HTS has fought both US and Russian imperialism and Iranian "imperialism", so not sure where that all gets us. Chris says "When Turkish troops first entered Idlib province, they were escorted by HTS members. HTS allowed Turkey to build bases in the territory it controls on the border with Afrin, in preparation for the invasion of Afrin." That is true. But that does not prove that Turkey and HTS like each other. Rather, Turkey's main focus at that point was the SDF in Afrin, so pragmatically left HTS for now; while HTS, fighting a joint Assad/ISIS offensive in south Idlib and Hama, also had a pragmatic interest in not confronting Turkey, at that point. RKOB is correct that Turkey's plan to eliminate HTS is evidenced by "the current attack of Zenki and Ahrar against the HTS in the north of Syria". Chris tries to avoid this conclusion by saying that HTS has previously attacked them and so they don't need Turkey's encouragement to hit back. But at that moment, HTS was not attacking them, and they chose that moment to "hit back" not out of a sudden desire to liberate Idlib from HTS, but due to their role as Turkish proxies (in general, I oppose the language of "proxies", but there is a case that Ahrar al-Sham has become pretty much fully proxified; Zenki is a once proud group that degenerated into roguishness a few years ago (and until recently was part of HTS, due to rejection by most other rebel groups in the north). I think Chris is a little uncomfortable with these conclusions because it suggests that some of the same groups attacking the SDFin Afrin are also attacking HTS in Idlib, in both cases as allies or proxies of Turkey. Supporters of the SDF like Chris prefer to see HTS/"Nusra" attacking Afrin, because it makes them sound bad; I would prefer that also, but reality is different, and we need to acknowledge it is a good thing that HTS is not taking part in the Afrin Op. Chris speculates that HTS internal divisions may be at play - that "one part of HTS is collaborating with Turkey to attack Afrin while another part of HTS is busy fighting Ahrar al-Sham." Too byzantine, there is nothing to it Chris. The Turkish incursion into Idlib some months back did split HTS - HTS expelled the faction which had opposed leaving al-Qaida. In other words, HTS' split from al-Qaida 18 months ago was consolidated. But the al-Qaida faction is more anti-Turkish intervention in Syria, so they are not taking part in the Afrin Op (and in any case, HTS put them in prison). It is the same HTS that is fighting Ahrar and others in Idlib, and *not* fighting the SDF in Afrin. I somewhat disagree with RCIT on the question of the conflict in Idlib. I agree that the pro-Turkish groups have been forced to go along with the Astana deal and increasingly are squeezed into being Turkish proxies, while HTS, correctly, opposes the deal. And as a result, often HTS has been continuing the fight against Assad (alongside some FSA, eg Jaysh al-Izza, which never stopped fighting) when Ahrar al-Sham and some other groups were not fighting. The refusal of Ahrar al-Sham to join the Hama offensive last April was a big factor in HTS's ability to defeat it right across Idlib in June - many FSA and even Islamist groups, and revolution-held towns, did not fight to defend Ahrar against HTS; and the towns made their own agreements with HTS to be "neutral" (as long as HTS kept out) rather than seeing Ahrar as their saviour. That is despite Ahrar having come to the side of the FSA and the revolution against HTS attacks in 2016. Astana and proxydom changed all this. However, I think RCIT is not fully seeing the other side of this. Once HTS defeated its main military rival in June, it was in a position to act even more in the way it acts when it can: as an oppressive force against the revolutionary people of Idlib. What this has meant is the reverse of last June: even though Ahrar al-Sham and Zenki are attacking HTS for the wrong reasons, the population seems to be taking advantage of that situation to rise up and help drive HTS out of their regions and towns. Some towns have declared neither group is welcome in their towns; in some places, people demonstrate against the conflict itself (preferring they focus on the regime); but overwhelmingly, people are just glad to get HTS oppression of their backs. I think they will know how to deal with Ahrar and Zenki. As always, the complexity needs to be seen in the context of the continued existence of a revolutionary, if exhausted, population; the armed groups are not all-powerful, but can be used. On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 7:53 PM, Chris Slee via Marxism <marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote: > ******************** POSTING RULES & NOTES ******************** > #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. > #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. > ***************************************************************** > > Michael Probsting says: "In opposite to the YPG, the HTS and other forces > are are confronting Assad and the imperialist forces - not inviting and > serving them like the YPG." > > Currently the YPG is resisting the Turkish invasion of Afrin. Turkey is > increasingly acting like an imperialist power, so we can say that the YPG is > resisting Turkish imperialism. > > By contrast, the HTS is offering no resistance whatsoever to Turkish > imperialism. When Turkish troops first entered Idlib province, they were > escorted by HTS members. HTS allowed Turkey to build bases in the territory > it controls on the border with Afrin, in preparation for the invasion of > Afrin. > > So we can say that HTS has collaborated with Turkish imperialism. > > In a previous message RKOB claimed that "Turkey is hostile to the HTS". But > I have not seen any reports of armed conflict between Turkish troops and HTS > fighters. > > Chris Slee > > > > ________________________________________ > From: RKOB <ak...@rkob.net> > Sent: Wednesday, 14 March 2018 2:42:21 AM > To: Chris Slee > Subject: Once again on GLW, Syria, HTS and YPG > > In reply to comrade Chris Slee, I want to make two brief comments: > First, the discussion started when he distributed the nonsensical statement > of the YPG that HTS would participate in the Turkish assault against Afrin. > Until now no serious person has confirmed this. The argument that may be some > ex-members of HTS are participating is nonsense. Shall we start to discuss > the past of the various SDF units? > Secondly, and more interesting, is comrade Slee’s statement: “The RCIT places > a lot of importance on the fact that HTS rejects the Astana agreement. But > groups should be judged on what they are for, not just what they are against. > HTS stands for theocratic dictatorship. They are enemies of the Syrian > revolution - if by "Syrian revolution" we mean the struggle for democracy > that began in 2011.” > Right, let us judge force by what they are for, not only what they are > against. Naturally, we shouldn’t start with some rhetorical ideological > commitments. Hence we don’t judge the PKK/YPG in the first place by their > crude mixture of Kurdish nationalism and Anarcho-Stalinism. Neither do we > judge the imperialists by their claims that they would intervene for the sake > of “democracy”, “human rights”, “fight against terrorism”, etc. > We judge them all by their deeds, not their phrase-mongering. > The deeds of the imperialist Great Powers are undisputed in this forum so I > will not dwell in this. > The deeds of the YPG are that they have played for years a crucial role in > helping US imperialism to build a strong basis in North and East Syria > (including many military bases), that they have collaborated with the Assad > regime and that at no moment did they join the Syrian Revolution. This is > what these people are for in deeds (not in ideological phrases reprinted > naively in “Green Left Weekly”!) This is the difference in deeds. For us > Marxists this difference in practice is not irrelevant! > In opposite to the YPG, the HTS and other forces are confronting Assad and > the imperialist forces – not inviting and serving them like the YPG. True, > they combine this with a reactionary Islamist utopian program. We have seen > such combinations various times in history. To give just two examples: the > liberations struggle in Morocco against the Spanish and French imperialists > led by the Islamist Abdel Karim in the 1920s (and strongly supported by the > communists) or the resistance of the Palestinians led by Hamas. > All those Islamophobic “leftists” who refuse support for such movement > because of the latters Islamist agenda, are lost for the anti-imperialist > struggle. > Michael Pröbsting > > Am 13.03.2018 um 06:31 schrieb Chris Slee: > > RKOB says that "Turkey is hostile to the HTS", and claims this is the > background to "the current attack of Zenki and Ahrar against the HTS in the > north of Syria". > > But HTS has previously attacked Ahrar al-Sham and other groups, so the latter > probably don't need Turkey's encouragement to hit back. > > It is not uncommon for rebel groups to fight each other. In 2014, for > example, Jabhat al-Nusra attacked the Syrian Revolutionaries Front, a Free > Syrian Army coalition with a strong presence in Idlib province. Some of the > survivors of the SRF fled to Afrin and later became part of the Syrian > Democratic Forces. Others fled to Turkey. > > I agree that HTS is not fully under Turkey's control. But they have in the > past worked together to attack Rojava. > > Kurdish sources have claimed that "Jabhat al-Nusra" members have joined the > Turkish invasion of Afrin. I am not sure if they are referring to current > members of HTS, or people who have in the past been members of Nusra and > retain a similar reactionary ideology. > > HTS has had various splits, and reportedly still has internal divisions. See > Charles Lister: > > https://warontherocks.com/2017/10/turkeys-idlib-incursion-and-the-hts-question-understanding-the-long-game-in-syria/ > > Hence it is conceivable that one part of HTS is collaborating with Turkey to > attack Afrin while another part of HTS is busy fighting Ahrar al-Sham. > > The RCIT places a lot of importance on the fact that HTS rejects the Astana > agreement. But groups should be judged on what they are for, not just what > they are against. HTS stands for theocratic dictatorship. They are enemies > of the Syrian revolution - if by "Syrian revolution" we mean the struggle for > democracy that began in 2011. > > Their reactionary politics repel the majority of Syrians, causing some > (particularly the religious minorities) to see Assad as the lesser evil. > > Meanwhile Turkey is invading Afrin with the goal of crushing those fighting > for democracy and women's liberation. Solidarity with the revolution in > northern Syria should be our main task. > > Chris Slee > > > > ________________________________________ > From: Marxism > <marxism-boun...@lists.csbs.utah.edu><mailto:marxism-boun...@lists.csbs.utah.edu> > on behalf of RKOB via Marxism > <marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu><mailto:marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> > Sent: Tuesday, 6 March 2018 6:39:57 PM > To: Chris Slee > Subject: Re: [Marxism] Turkey’s unexpected empire in Syria > > ******************** POSTING RULES & NOTES ******************** > #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. > #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. > ***************************************************************** > > I also read this article yesterday. Hence I saw that it also contains > the following: > > "/In Idlib, the establishment of a network of Turkish military bases in > January 2018 has led to a concerted attempt by militias backed by Ankara > to expel Hayat Tahrir al-Sham (HTS) and other jihadist groups from major > towns. As this attempt to reduce HTS’s power unfolds, Diyanet has also > ramped up efforts to take control of welfare and governance across the > province./" > > This is another evidence which totally contradicts what you (and other > YPG supporters) argued just 3 weeks ago: that HTS would participate in > Turkey's invasion in Afrin or, more general, that the HTS would be an > agent of Ankara. > > It rather confirms what I, and others, have argued since a long time: > that Turkey is hostile to the HTS and is determined to pressurize, > minimize and defeat them. > > This is the background of the current attack of Zenki and Ahrar against > the HTS in the north of Syria. > > More on this in our latest articles on Syria: > > https://www.thecommunists.net/worldwide/africa-and-middle-east/syria-idlib-the-attack-of-the-astana-conspirators-could-be-repelled-thus-far/ > > https://www.thecommunists.net/worldwide/africa-and-middle-east/turkey-s-hidden-war-against-hts-in-idlib/ > > > Am 06.03.2018 um 06:01 schrieb Chris Slee via Marxism: > > > ******************** POSTING RULES & NOTES ******************** > #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. > #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. > ***************************************************************** > > https://ahvalnews6.com/turkey-syria/no-exit-turkeys-unexpected-empire-syria > > > "By August 2016, Turkey’s government felt impelled to order military > operations that have led to Turkish control over large parts of northern > Syria. Culminating with the recent assault on the Afrin region, the primary > focus of these operations has been to prevent the YPG from seizing more > territory along the Turkish border.... > > "In the first weeks of this intervention many analysts tried to establish > whether the Turkish military had an exit strategy that would enable it to > leave Idlib, Afrin and north Aleppo province once it fulfilled its goals. Yet > 18 months after the first Turkish tanks entered the Syrian city of Jarabulus > as part of Operation Euphrates Shield it is increasingly clear that a swift > exit from Syria is impossible.... > > "In northern Syria a partnership is therefore emerging between Diyanet > officials and Turkish army officers who have become accustomed to governing > large populations as part of a semi-colonial venture. With Turkey’s strategic > dilemmas making a withdrawal unlikely any time soon, this network of Syria > hands within Diyanet and the military is developing a vested interest in > maintaining long-term control over Turkey’s unexpected empire in Syria." > > *** > > I don't agree with the word "unexpected" in the title of this article. > Turkey has been determined to suppress the Rojava revolution from its > inception. Initially it used various reactionary Syrian rebel groups to > attack Rojava. When this failed Turkish troops were sent into Syria - first > into the Jarablus/al-Bab area, then into Idlib, then into Afrin. > > A full scale invasion of the Democratic Federation of Northern Syria was > deterred for a time by fear of the response of the US and Russia. > > The US needed the Syrian Democratic Forces to fight ISIS, and therefore > warned Turkey against attacking SDF controlled areas in north-eastern Syria. > > Russia controls the airspace over north-western Syria. This deterred a > Turkish invasion of Afrin - until Russia and Turkey made a deal. > > The Assad regime may not be entirely happy with the deal, since there is no > guarantee that Turkey will ever leave the area it has occupied. This may > explain why a small contingent of pro-Assad militia has gone to Afrin to > oppose the Turkish invasion. > > Chris Slee > > > > > _________________________________________________________ > Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm > Set your options at: > http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/mkaradjis%40gmail.com _________________________________________________________ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
