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Louis Proyect and I have both pointed out in past threads here your, to put it charitably, hostile attitudes toward Jews. I saw your crap in Mondoweiss about the Chicago Dyke March, so I knew a confrontation between us was just a matter of time. Yes, Tony Greenstein used the term "Zio". So what? I confronted him and his supporters about that directly on the Jewish Voice for Labour blog, and no serious rebuttal was offered. "Zio" has an undeniable history with the KKK and US neo-Nazi groups prior to the current kerfuffle in Britain. There are lots of tweets where Greenstein makes not only anti-Semitic, but anti-gay and misogynistic statements as well. He's no Moshe Machover, whom I defended. You don't like the fact that the BDS demands are compatible with Democratic Zionism? Too bad. The BDS movement has expelled anti-Semites before - are you afraid you might be next? Maybe you should just save yourself the trouble and remove yourself from the BDS movement, opposing it from the "Left." On Thu, Mar 29, 2018 at 9:04 AM, A.R. G via Marxism < marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote: > ******************** POSTING RULES & NOTES ******************** > #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. > #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. > ***************************************************************** > > *Specifically, this: http://socialistcurrents.org/?p=2914 > > ^^^Outside of the obvious racism that underpins comments like: > > "Demand #3 [The right of Palestinians to return to their lands] appears to > be the “tricky one”, since, on first glance, it plays into fears that it > mandates Israel allowing a flood of Palestinian refugees that would turn > Israel’s Jewish majority into a minority. *Not only is this highly > unlikely, since Jews have not flooded Israel under the Jewish Law of > Return, but the demand’s wording only deals with the principle of the Right > of Return and does not concern itself with its actual implementation.*" > > There is also the obvious thread that runs through Sheldon's entire > worldview about Zionism in that he attempts to make it compatible with > liberalism and democracy. It is a racist whitewash and would explain why > Sheldon Ranz thinks Tony Greenstein is anti-Semitic for using the prefix > "Zio" which means "Zionist". That is not being "part" of the BDS Movement, > that is co-opting it with bigotry against the very people he claims to be > defending. Gross. > > That is putting aside all of the other bizarre and straightforwardly racist > comments he has made in prior discussions. > > Ironically, Sheldon proves the point I made earlier in this thread: that > anti-Semitism is treated exceptionally on the left while other forms of > racism are tolerated, and much if not all of the fuss is itself rooted in > anti-Arab bigotry that Sheldon Ranz embodies with his unwelcome "support". > > Amith R. Gupta > > > > On Thu, Mar 29, 2018 at 8:54 AM, A.R. G <amithrgu...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > " Gupta is totally wrong on the term "Zio," Klansman David Duke coined > it > > back in the 1990s as an anti-Semitic slur, and it was used that way by > the > > leaders of the Chicago Dyke March last year against a trans Jewish > > reporter, Gretchen Rachel Hammond, who reported honestly about the > > anti-Semitic maneuverings of the March organizers. Knowing that, Amith, > if > > you are still using the term, then yes, you are an anti-Semite. I say > that > > as part of the BDS movement who is proud that its leaders expelled > > anti-Semites from its ranks back in 2012." > > > > "Zio" is a quote from Tony Greenstein. Linking it to David Duke is > > shameless guilt by association and proves Greenstein's point (that you > are > > allowing actual racists to commandeer the discourse around Palestine). > > > > Either way, based on your batshit accusations of anti-Semitism against > the > > Palestine solidarity movement, your willingness to believe things that I > > know from personal knowledge to be lies about Palestinian refugees, your > > failure to even check who you are speaking about when you read quotes on > > this list-serv, and the racist comments you have made about credibility > > being derived from race on this forum, and your willingness to make > > "Zionism" compatible with boycotts of Israel, I do not take anything you > > say about anti-Semitism seriously and think you should stop identifying > > with the BDS Movement given your racist and contradictory politics. > > > > Amith R. Gupta > > > > > > > > On Wed, Mar 28, 2018 at 11:38 PM, Sheldon Ranz via Marxism < > > marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote: > > > >> ******************** POSTING RULES & NOTES ******************** > >> #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > >> #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. > >> #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. > >> ***************************************************************** > >> > >> Ockerman's painting depicted six capitalist figures: two Rockefellers, > JP > >> Morgan, Crowley, Rothschild and Warburg. It's absurd to blame Corbyn > for > >> not having seen it as anti-Semitic. To do that requires one to be a > >> specialist in the field, and that was something he never claimed to be. > >> > >> Gupta is totally wrong on the term "Zio," Klansman David Duke coined it > >> back in the 1990s as an anti-Semitic slur, and it was used that way by > the > >> leaders of the Chicago Dyke March last year against a trans Jewish > >> reporter, Gretchen Rachel Hammond, who reported honestly about the > >> anti-Semitic maneuverings of the March organizers. Knowing that, Amith, > >> if > >> you are still using the term, then yes, you are an anti-Semite. I say > >> that > >> as part of the BDS movement who is proud that its leaders expelled > >> anti-Semites from its ranks back in 2012. > >> > >> --> Sheldon > >> > >> On Wed, Mar 28, 2018 at 8:09 PM, Jeff via Marxism < > >> marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote: > >> > >> > ******************** POSTING RULES & NOTES ******************** > >> > #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > >> > #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. > >> > #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. > >> > ***************************************************************** > >> > > >> > On 2018-03-28 18:40, Louis Proyect via Marxism wrote: > >> > > >> > https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2018/03/combat-left > >> >> -anti-semitism-corbynism-must-change-way-it-sees-world > >> >> > >> > > >> > I think the article that started this discussion is rather crumby and > >> > won't address it. It focuses on Corbyn who I do not believe is > >> antisemitic > >> > nor is antisemitism in the labor party an important actual issue. I > >> have no > >> > doubt that the charge of antisemitism is just being used to attack the > >> left > >> > wing of that party as it is routinely used against supporters of > >> Palestine > >> > thus including (essentially) the entire far left. A party as large and > >> > diverse as the British Labor party is bound to have individuals with > >> > antisemitic (among other evil) views, and not being a member or even > >> living > >> > in Britain I would have to trust them to do their own housecleaning in > >> > these regards. If Corbyn made a mistake (it couldn't have been any > more > >> > than that) then he can and should address his error and move on. And > the > >> > proposition in the article, which I've heard before from some of the > >> > "anti-Deutsch" (pro-zionist leftists, especially in Germany), that > >> > antisemitism is "not racism" but something unique, is a despicable way > >> of > >> > separating anti-racist struggles from each other and privileging one > >> > particular minority which does not (at least in Britain) face > >> significant > >> > oppression. > >> > > >> > Having said that, however, I don't think we can just ignore the issue. > >> > Because there are really two potential problems: 1) Actual > antisemitism > >> > within the left; and 2) The perception of antisemitism by the left. I > >> don't > >> > think that (1) is a widespread problem and I expect every left group > to > >> > keep it that way. However the perception of antisemitism is clearly > >> hurtful > >> > to the left. NOT because it will drive Jews away from the left, since > >> > left-wing Jews understand as well as anyone why these spurious charges > >> are > >> > so frequently heard from our enemies (and sometimes parroted within > the > >> > left). But because any form of racism is so opposite our values and > the > >> > message that we are trying to convey, so that if one form of racism is > >> > tolerated or excused then one would conclude that we have no > principles > >> and > >> > might equally find other racist ideas acceptable. More specifically, > if > >> our > >> > opposition to Israel is seen as a result of antisemitism (as is > >> frequently > >> > charged) or if antisemitic ideas are seen as legitimate (or excusable) > >> in > >> > the fight for Palestinian self-determination, then the left may suffer > >> > greatly due to that perception alone. > >> > > >> > It isn't our fault, but it is our problem. I think that what has > changed > >> > since, say, 20 years ago, is the rise of the alt-right (and such > >> forces) in > >> > conjunction with the red-brown alliance. When leftists engage in > >> conspiracy > >> > theories (which they have to in order to justify their awful positions > >> on > >> > Syria, for instance!) and these are the same conspiracy theories > >> advanced > >> > by the far right, then we ALL become identified with the sort of > >> thinking > >> > which includes antisemitism among other ideologies that have nothing > to > >> do > >> > with the left or our values. A case in point is our insisting -- > >> correctly! > >> > -- that "anti-Zionism is not antisemitism." As we've been arguing for > a > >> > long time, we're against Zionism because it oppresses the Palestinians > >> and > >> > we call for solutions that end the oppression of Palestine and these > >> would > >> > also be in the interest of Jews living in that region (except for the > >> class > >> > enemy among them, of course). Unfortunately the success of our > >> campaigns in > >> > that regard gave a brilliant idea to the far right: instead of > >> expressing > >> > their hate for Jews, just say that they are "pro-Palestinian"! Of > course > >> > these white racists have always seen Arabs in the same light as other > >> > people of color (and routinely oppose their immigration to Europe), > but > >> are > >> > smart enough to shut up about that while taking up OUR slogans against > >> > Israel for the WRONG REASONS. It isn't our fault that they are doing > >> that, > >> > but IT IS OUR PROBLEM. > >> > > >> > I'll end there and hope that this point leads to further discussion on > >> > solutions to the problem I have identified, which I do see as crucial. > >> > > >> > - Jeff > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > _________________________________________________________ > >> > Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm > >> > Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/opt > >> > ions/marxism/sranz18%40gmail.com > >> > > >> _________________________________________________________ > >> Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm > >> Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/opt > >> ions/marxism/amithrgupta%40gmail.com > >> > > > > > _________________________________________________________ > Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm > Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/sranz18% > 40gmail.com > _________________________________________________________ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
