I would have a caveat though that the crux of it, as in the the fictional version, was the defeat of the Soviet Union. I don't think an adverse outcome of the Battle of Britain would have been dispositive. In fact, in that version Britain remained like a sort of Taiwan in the US sphere off Fortress Europe. Remember, Germany more or less broke off the Battle of Britain to launch its invasion of the Soviet Union, the defeat of which it considered its No 1 priority, a sentiment widely held beyond the Nazi Party. Had they done that in 1942 the war would have been over in the sense that the Allies would have, after a bit, had to agree to an armistice and a compromise peace favorable to Germany as there's simply no way they could have won after that point. Moreover, it can't be understated the animosity that Britain inspired in the colonial world including Ireland. DeValera was asked to join the Allies to which he responded: sure get out of Ulster first. Nonetheless Dublin was bombed on a couple occasions by the Luftwaffe. Thus there was widespread sentiment, including in the US prior to Pearl Harbor, that the fate of Britain was Britain's problem; in fact during the summer of 41 I think the renewal of the draft passed the House by only 1 vote. That was also the context in which the ruling class, or the liberal wing of it, pulled Willkie out of nowhere as the Republican candidate in May 1940 during the collapse of France because the entire leadership of the Republicans (Taft, Dewey, Vandenberg) was stolidly Firster in its outlook and outspoken in its view that they didn't give a fuck about Britain or France (and only slightly coy about their admiration for Hitler and his anti-communist views for that matter). Thus there was great concern that an "isolationalist" might get elected and they wanted to eliminate that possibility by having Willkie run as FDR Lite.
> From: [email protected] > Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 00:18:38 +0000 > Subject: Re: [Marxism] "WW2": interimperialist war to redivide the world, > To: [email protected] > > > a good fictional scenario of the legacy of this outcome is the movie > "Fatherland"about a super-power summit between Hitler, who is turning 75 and > President Kennedy in Berlin in 1964. President Joseph Kennedy that is. (who > not only approved the 1938 Munichdeal but who was actually one of its > architects). > > > Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 13:26:58 -0700 > > From: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: [Marxism] "WW2": interimperialist war to redivide the world, > > To: [email protected] > > > > Tom, thanks for your comments. > > > > It is not for me, historically, whether WWII was a "good war". No > > imperialist war ever is "Good". For that matter, no war is "good". > > But...my question always revolves around what if (Louis P. hates 'what > > ifs', understandably) Britain was, say, knocked out of the war, forced > > to sue for peace from the Germans. Totally plausible. [Same with the US > > in the Pacific and the US was forced to not participate in the war in > > any meaningful measure.] This avoids the question of a successful peace > > or, "America First" question, per se, but with the same results. This is > > especially an important question for Europe and, more specifically, the > > USSR and a Nazi occupied Europe. I simply see "Britain losing" (a > > colloquial version of a Leninist defeatist position) as not particularly > > a good thing, and in fact disastrous for humanity. And this is where I > > depart from common Trotskyist positions on WWII, which, arguably, is > > most 'orthodox' of Leninist positions out there on this subject. > > > > David > > > > ________________________________________________ > > YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > > Send list submissions to: [email protected] > > Set your options at: > > http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/tcod%40hotmail.com > > _________________________________________________________________ > Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail®. > http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_QuickAdd_062009 > ________________________________________________ > YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > Send list submissions to: [email protected] > Set your options at: > http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/tcod%40hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ Microsoft brings you a new way to search the web. Try Bing™ now http://www.bing.com?form=MFEHPG&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TEXT_MFEHPG_Core_tagline_try bing_1x1 ________________________________________________ YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: [email protected] Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
