On Marv's questions. (1) yes, given the electoral college, it only matters in swing states. My vote for Harris or Trump would not matter in Ohio which will go for Trump or in Illinois, where I now live which will go Democratic regardless of my vote. (2) Theoretically, yes. It did not happen on 2000. Some of us have repeatedly posted on this since then citing things like ... well, the math, and I won't deprive you of looking it up. The story that the Nader vote cost Gore the election is just a gd lie, though the Democratic partisans puke it out continually. I'm surprised to have to address it again. And, in fact, Gore carried Florida but the Democrats didn't contest ot effectively. (3) They are trying to call attention to issues unaddressed by the corporate parties. Busting up the polite arrangements of the gentleman's club would do that. (4) this objection would justify voting Republican which regularly gets union backing as well.
I'll respond to Charles in another post. On Tue, Sep 3, 2024, 5:28 PM Charles Rachlis via groups.io <Crachlis= [email protected]> wrote: > To Marv's question, > > I love the question because it confirms the conclusion that the various > "third party" options are no more than pressure groups attempting with a > thread bare string to pull the Democrats to the left while massive tow > lines are pulling them further to the right. > > I would like to relay how this actually plays a negative role in holding > back the push for a workers party in the USA. > A few (maybe not so few) years back one CP'er running for congress on the > Peace & Freedom Party ticket came to see me for me to sign his petition to > run in the congressional district I live in. Having participated in many > petition drives to run socialist candidates before I was willing but that > was not the issue. What was germane to this discussion is that he > explained that he was running in my district and not the one he lived in > because where he lived the "progressive" Democratic Congresswoman Barbara > Lee was the candidate and so the PFP had decided not to run against her but > to run in a "safe" district, mine just 3 miles to the north. > > Well you don't need advanced logic to see how this operation is a sham and > is not aiming at challenging the capitalist class hold on power. The > "progressive" Democrats are maintain the illusions that the imperialist > Democrats can be reformed and the CP and a host of reformists help them to > do it. Their intention is not to win the vanguard of the working class > and in particular the Black Oakland community (where the ILWU is strong) to > initiate what long time CP leader Gus Hall famously promised, the coming of > the Mass Breakaway! Nor what the DSA more recently debated as the > HardBreak vs the soft-break No this CP/PFP candidate just wanted a place > to play in the shadow of the popular front and not ruffle any feathers. > Best to "Keep Hope Alive" by not challenging Barbara Lee. > > This is the strategy of the "Safe State" votes pushed by many Greenies, > Westies and others. > > So why would Debs, Lenin and Trotsky say its unprincipled to vote for the > Democrats seeing there are no "realistic" alternatives and considering the > bulk of the labor leadership is hitched to the Democratic Party even while > the Teamsters play footsie with the Republicans? The answer is because > revolutionary Marxists start from what is objectively necessary (we say > what is) not from the backward consciousness of the working class. That is > what gives us the authority to declare that only the workers government > created through class struggle means and defended by workers militia can > meet our classes most basic needs in the epoch of capitalist decay. > > When the socialist leaders play to the backwardness of the working class > they are not socialist leaders the become opportunists tail-ending the > reformists and outright capitalist trade union leaders who keep our unions > from becoming schools class struggle and socialist revolution by > maintaining them as tools of class collaboration and social imperialism. > > Of c > > > > "The working class and the employing class have nothing in common." IWW > founding congress opening statement > > > On Tuesday, September 3, 2024 at 01:39:32 PM PDT, Marv Gandall < > [email protected]> wrote: > > > My quadrennial election cycle questions for my American friends: > > 1. The issue of whether to support the Democrats only matters in a handful > of swing states does it not? > > 2. Isn't there a danger that if a third party takes just enough swing > state votes from the Democrats allowing Trump to win, that the Democratic > base, rightly or worngly, will turn on those third parties and their > Marxist supporters with a vengeance - as happened in Bush vs Gore in 2000? > > 3. What do these third parties stand to gain from being spoilers? > > 4. In the absence of a revolutionary socialist alternative, is support for > a bourgeois party backed by the unions against an anti-union bourgeois > party unprincipled? > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Groups.io Links: You receive all messages sent to this group. View/Reply Online (#31990): https://groups.io/g/marxmail/message/31990 Mute This Topic: https://groups.io/mt/108216415/21656 -=-=- POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. #4 Do not exceed five posts a day. -=-=- Group Owner: [email protected] Unsubscribe: https://groups.io/g/marxmail/leave/8674936/21656/1316126222/xyzzy [[email protected]] -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
