Comrade Mark and Tony misunderstand me when I emphasise that the problem
in 1941 was the chauvinist consciousness of the majority of American
worker. I do not doubt that this consciousness was objective reality.
Likewise, the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbour was objective reality.
But this does not change the fact that the majority of American workers
reacted to this event in a patriotic, i.e. chauvinist way. This is not
surprising and it happened in many other countries involved in
imperialist conflicts (e.g. in Europe in WWI and WWII, including in
Austria).
Lenin emphasized that such a reaction and the subsequent isolation of
revolutionaries – at least in the first period of the war – is nearly
inevitable in such a situation.
“/We must take special pains to explain that the question of “defence of
the fatherland” will inevitably arise, and that the overwhelming
majority of the working people will inevitably decide it in favour of
their bourgeoisie. Therefore, first, it is necessary to explain what
“defence of the fatherland” means. Second, in connection with this, it
is necessary to explain what “defeatism” means. Lastly, we must explain
that the only possible method of combating war is to preserve existing,
and to form new, illegal organisations in which all revolutionaries
taking part in a war carry on prolonged anti-war activities—all this
must be brought into the forefront./” (V. I. Lenin: Notes on Tasks of
Our Delegation at The Hague, in: LCW Vol. 33, pp. 447-448)
However, the reaction to such isolation must not be adaption to
social-chauvinism or preservation of legal existence of party and media
at any costs but political and organizational preparation for such a
situation (preparing for underground or semi-legal existence, some
leaders going abroad, illegal printing shops, etc.). In other words, the
task is “to swim against the stream” and not to swim with the masses who
are temporarily affected by chauvinism. It is no accident that Lenin’s
and Zinoviev’s compilation of writings during WWI was called “Against
the Stream” and not “Swimming with the Stream”.
I did say that Canon and the SWP failed to take a consistent defeatist
position (and I provided quotes with exact source for it, contrary to
Mark’s claims). However, this does not mean that they capitulated like
the SPD did in 1914. These exist not only black and white, but also
shades in between.
By the way, I can not fail to point out that in the above-mentioned
quotes from December 1922, Lenin points to “defeatism” – contrary to
Draper’s and Tony’s wrong claim that he would have “moved away” from
this concept after 1915.
I don’t know why Mark introduces the “Anschluß” in the discussion. In
any case, this was a conflict between two imperialist states and the
German and Austrian Trotskyists refused to support either side.
Am 07.07.2026 um 00:54 schrieb Anthony Teso via groups.io:
Reply to Mark and Michael on Cannon, the SWP, and 1941
Mark wants Michael to provide proof of the SWP’s wartime opportunism
and suggests looking in the Militant archive. That’s a fair request.
The answer is simple: the evidence exists and is published, but it is
not where either of you expect it to be.
First, here’s where Michael is correct. Mark’s defense of the SWP uses
a common argument: since repression is real and people are furious,
the party should soften its position. This logic isn’t about the
details. It was used by the SPD in August 1914, when arrest lists were
ready, and the army wanted to use them. The SFIO used it during a real
German invasion, which the U.S. never experienced. This way of
thinking fits any leadership that prioritizes survival over clarity.
Michael is right that leaders of the Second International used this
same reasoning to justify giving in, and Mark hasn’t responded. Asking
again and again what 1914 has to do with this misses the point. The
analogy is important. If the SWP acted on principle, that principle
should be stated in a way that wouldn’t also justify what Ebert did.
Mark hasn’t done that.
Second, here’s where Mark is right. Michael claims people were scared
and angry only because of American media propaganda, not real events.
But that just reverses the same mistake. There were 2,400 deaths, four
battleships sunk, and many people feared the West Coast could be
attacked next. That was a real situation. At the time, workers didn’t
see a difference between the U.S. Navy and the country itself, and we
shouldn’t try to separate them now. Michael criticizes Mark for
explaining people’s thinking by simply referring to it, but then he
does the same by blaming the media. Neither view is materialist. In
December 1941, real events shaped people’s views. The real question is
whether the party’s position changed because of these events.
Third, I don’t agree with how both of you are framing this issue. You
both use revolutionary defeatism as the main test of principle, then
argue about whether the SWP met that standard or had a reason not to.
Michael wants the party press to sound more radical, while Mark argues
for an exception because of repression. Hal Draper pointed out seventy
years ago that the defeat slogan from 1914 and 1915 was confusing, and
even Lenin moved away from it. What really matters is refusing to give
political support to the imperialist war; hoping for military defeat
and counting how many risky statements appear in the paper are
distractions. If you focus on that, the real historical question about
the SWP becomes clear, and those involved openly debated it at the time.
Mark asks for evidence, so here it is. Grandizo Munis wrote a detailed
critique of the leadership’s actions at the Minneapolis trial. He
argued that Cannon’s testimony downplayed the party’s revolutionary
positions, described expropriation as a compensated purchase, and
explained the party’s opposition to the war in a way meant to reassure
rather than educate. Cannon replied at length in “Defense Policy in
the Minneapolis Trial.” Pioneer Publishers printed both sides of the
exchange in 1942, showing the party took the disagreement seriously.
This fact alone disproves the idea that the charge of adaptation was
invented later or is just a smear. Cannon treated Munis as a comrade
with a real concern, not as someone spreading lies. Whether Cannon’s
answer is sufficiently adequate enough is the real debate, and it’s
about testimony and political stance, not about how quickly the
Militant published a statement. Michael repeats the weaker version of
the critique, which lets Mark point to the archive with confidence.
The stronger version was written in 1942 by a Trotskyist who supported
the defense and read the transcript.
The second piece of evidence is the Proletarian Military Policy. Here,
Mark’s mention of Trotsky actually works against him. Trotsky was
killed in August 1940, sixteen months before Pearl Harbor, so he never
saw how things played out during the war or read the trial testimony.
He can’t be used as a witness for either side. What Trotsky did leave
was the PMP, which the SWP adopted in September 1940 because he pushed
for it. If the SWP adjusted to the antifascist mood of American
workers, that change didn’t start with the indictment or with cautious
editing. It started with a policy calling for trade union control of
military training during the state’s war mobilization, implemented
before Pearl Harbor. That’s the real issue, and it involves Trotsky as
much as Cannon. Bringing up Trotsky doesn’t settle the SWP’s war
policy debate; it actually raises more questions.
I won’t discuss the Anschluss comparison because it doesn’t add
anything here. I also agree with Mark that we should discuss the topic
of Gaza somewhere else.
The real issue isn’t whether Cannon repeated slogans that could have
gotten him indicted while he was already under indictment. No one
expects a leader to volunteer for prison. The real question is whether
the political line, the PMP before the war, and the way the trial was
handled maintained a clear refusal to support the imperialist war, or
if that position was softened to align with workers’ views. That’s the
main point, and there are actual texts by Munis and Cannon on this
issue. I’d rather see this thread focus on reading those texts instead
of debating when newspaper statements were made.
Tony
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Groups.io Links: You receive all messages sent to this group.
View/Reply Online (#42362): https://groups.io/g/marxmail/message/42362
Mute This Topic: https://groups.io/mt/119987077/21656
-=-=-
POSTING RULES & NOTES
#1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
#2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
#3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
#4 Do not exceed five posts a day.
-=-=-
Group Owner: [email protected]
Unsubscribe: https://groups.io/g/marxmail/leave/13617172/21656/1316126222/xyzzy
[[email protected]]
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
