On Thu, 30 Dec 1999 11:58:18 -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> You're a sharp cookie Neil.
Hmmmm...not really sure how to take that! ;-)
> Your point about scrambled TV programs is an excellent one that I
> hadn't considered. Cable TV companies will kick your behind in the
> U.S. if they catch you and it's very enforceable. The point about
> scrambled TV broadcasts was a sharp left uppercut to my jaw!!! I'm
> woozy!!! You have me reeling!!! I had to .... THINK!!! Okay, try
> this, it wasn't the act of recording that was illegal, it was
> descrambling the signal that was illegal. Otherwise, it's just
> time-shifting (see below). I win!!!
I always thought cable and satellite TV companies would prosecute you for
copyright theft, or perhaps just simply theft or fraud for this, both over
there across the pond, and here in England.
Again, I can't see much tangible difference between this, and copying
somebody else's CD to MD.
> (shift to screen and music between pac-man levels two and three.)
Nice ;-)
> I don't know how it works in England, but cases and controversies are
> settled under the facts of a specific case only in the U.S. and
> exactly how a court will get from point A to point B is quite
> unpredictable. They often try to avoid the big issue in the back of
> everyone's mind and cut the whole thing off at the pass. As far as I
> know, no one's been prosecuted or sued for copying a friend's CD to MD
> or trading MDs with a friend. That's the big argument here isn't it?
I don't think it's likely they would get prosecuted, either. But I would
still contend it's technically illegal, which I think is the point in
debate.
Again read the terms of the copyright agreement for clarification.
> So, sort of a case here a case there a statute there, here, to my
> rudimentary understanding, is what happens in the U.S:
>
> Want to make recordings of your own or someone else's CD for
> non-commercial use in the home? Read the clear text of the AHRA.
> Hmm, Mr. Artist, Mr. Recording Industry, bring that one before a court
> and you could be in trouble for bringing a frivolous law suit.
But does it say you are allowed to breach copyright, and not actually have a
copy yourself? In that it's OK simply to pirate somebody else's copy? When
does the commercial aspect kick in? Surely you would have been a commercial
customer if you'd actually had to buy the CD?
> Want to sell an MP3 recorder to people for very foreseeable copyright
> infringement in someone's home? Oh dear, MP3 isn't specifically
> listed in the AHRA. Well that's okay, no one's broken the law yet.
> Mr. Recording Industry, that's prior restraint. See ya.
Which is completely valid. I don't believe you could simply outlaw certain
devices with the idea that they could be used, potentially, for small-scale
piracy.
> Want to copy some pages from a copyrighted book? Hmmmmmmmmm.
> That seems fair. We'll call that fair use. See ya Mr. Author, see ya
> Mr. Book publisher.
See the copyright notice. No autopsy, no foul - copyright owner agrees.
Copyright owner explicitly doesn't agree, or decides to disallow - I would
imagine they have perfect grounds.
> College kid puts copyrighted information available for download on the
> internet. Don't care where he got it. Was he selling it? No? See
> ya Mr. Prosecutor.
Does he *own* it, or the copyright? See the copyright agreement - let the
courts decide.
> You want the FBI to get a warrant to search your home because they
> have probable cause to believe you have been recording minidiscs of
> other people's CD's? Really?
No, not at all. I think the debate is on the legality of the situation, not
necessarily the practicality or the risk.
> You want CD's with controversial political speech (and that's a lot of
> pop music these days) to be available only to people who buy them?
Quite simply, poignantly and plainly - depends on who owns the copyright and
the restrictions, or lack of, that they permit their material to be
distributed with.
> Bottom line, do you want the government in a position to restrict and
> decide what can or cannot be copied in your home?
No, so long as you actually have complied with whatever copyright
restrictions apply.
I mean if you own a CD, I don't think anybody is gonna come breaking down
your door telling you what you can and can't do with it.
If you don't, and are pirating it offa friend, I don't think anybody is
gonna come breaking down your door, either. But I still don't believe it's
legal, unless the copyright agreement allows it.
> Don't you think
> that's getting a little dangerous? Don't you think your liberty is at
> stake a little bit here?
This is a little of a strawman really.
> Anytime copyright law is mitigated in the U.S., it is mitigated due to
> a competing Constitutional value. It has to be, because copyright
> itself derives from the Constitution.
I would imagine that in reality, copyright is derived from peoples'
intellectual property, and the rights *they* have to protect this.
> The bottom line is, once someone gets in their home in the U.S , your
> copyright grip over them loosens a lot.
You never have a copyright grip over them. Simply your copyright material
you have *allowed* them to buy under *your* restrictions. If they didn't
like your restrictions, they had all the constitutional rights to walk away
and not buy it.
> Put it all together and
> someone can record just about anything in their own home once and they
> will be okay.
I never disputed that they will be OK.
I think what is being discussed is the questionable legality of pirating
copyright material owned by a third party.
> Seriously, though, you're a sharp cookie.
Who ya bin talkin' to, sucka? Just exactly who! ;-)
Who was it? High-school teacha...man those guys always lie... ;-)
> Okay, consider this:
>
> On the back of my Kid Rock CD (yes, I have warped musical taste, and
> yes I have the actual CD) it says:
>
> "Unauthorized reproduction of this recording is Prohibited by Federal
> law and subject to criminal prosecution and a good way to get your ass
> kicked then sued." Taking the humorous intent aside for a moment,
> does that mean I agree to get my ass kicked if I copy his CD? You
> don't think lawyers get a big chuckle as they're writing that
> shrink-wrap crap? It's not an enforceable contract just because it
> says so. And breech of contract is never, ever a crime in the U.S.
> That's against our Constitution, too. There are huge ugly books in
> tiny print about this.
I guess the reality is that somebody copying another person's CD, is
unlikely to get into trouble. But that doesn't make it legal, just because
the practicality of the situation is unlikely to result in any action.
That's why the bigger issues of the net, mp3s and such is poignant here.
But as you say, you enter into a contract when you buy most copyright
materials. Most people either conveniently ignore, deny or fail to realise
this exists.
Just because of this, and the unlikely recourse, does not suddenly turn this
into legal activity, as some seem to be claiming.
> The drivel about liberty, freedom of speech, freedom of association,
> etc. etc. is featured very prominently in the text of our
> Constitution. It's a pretty quick read. Take a look!!! It's very
> general (which many of you seem to take offense to), but it carries a
> tremendous wallop in our legal system.
No doubt.
But I have not yet seen any constitutional grounds for claiming that
copyright restrictions or enforcement are un-constitutional.
I could buy this, if the copyright stipulations were unconstitutional in
their own right ie "In buying this CD you hereby waive your constitutional
rights to free speech, apple pie, senior prom, fireworks on July 4th, turkey
at thanksgiving, and a souped up T-bird with the sounds up loud with your
arm hanging outta the window crusin' on a Saturday nite..." - you get my
idea, though.
> Once you start selling copyrighted stuff that you've recorded or
> copied, I suggest you look to your conscience as well as the law for
> guidance. Come on, use some common sense. I certainly wouldn't do
> it.
Perhaps, but those that do, do deserve some protection, as well as those
that *choose* to buy it. I mean after all, their citizens as well, and they
have constitutional rights..."life...liberty...and the pursuit of
hapiness..." an' all...
> Thank you all for a tremendously entertaining time. End of topic.
Ba-da-ding...for my next trick! ;-)
Happy New Year!!!
Neil
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