i won't get started or it could get very ugly besides it's not a mailing list for bikes. but every jap bike rider i know (myself included) can't stand harleys.... but as they say....EACH TO THEIR OWN, just like us datto freaks when talking to commodore drivers. you like what you like and thats all that matters
----- Original Message ----- From: "E Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2001 5:26 PM Subject: RE: V-6 or 4cyl? > Mark, > Funny about that because I really like sitting next to a late jap bike at > the lights when I am on my 58 Panhead chopper Harley. They may be like a > tractor engine to some but they have a soul. Most times the Japper rider > would really like to be on the Harley. They may not be the most > sophisticated machines in the world but you will travel a long way to find > other riders as commited to their machines. I love them for the fact they > really shouldn't work well at all but do, and very reliably! > Ah well I had to come out of the closet some time. My wife also rides a > Harley and loves it as well. > I cop a lot of shit from Harley riders because I love Dattos, but I can hack > it. I just love good machinery whatever the breed. > > Cheers, > Feral Errol > 58 Pan (Delkron/S&S/Wiseco) Chopper , Mint 77 Rickman CR Honda 860, 1948 BSA > C11 Blue Special. > mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://www.datrats.com.au/ > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of mark krawczuk > Sent: Thursday, 15 November 2001 3:17 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: V-6 or 4cyl? > > HI, I REALLY , REALLY HATE PUSH RODS, i guess that harley davidson havent > even discovered ohc yet... does anybody wanna tell em? i would love to > be sitting at the lites, on a late model jap bike, right next to a harley, > then when the lites turn green.............. > > > mark k > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2001 12:43 PM > Subject: Re: V-6 or 4cyl? > > > > Indy cars use pushrods > > I guess they have to be pretty clever to work around that little problem > > > > > > From: "Daniel Kroehn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > Subject: Re: V-6 or 4cyl? > > > Date: 15/11/2001 11:57:19 > > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > Did you guys know that to reduce the moment of inertia on indy cars, the > > > flywheel/clutch arrangement is only about 5 inches in > > > diameter.......................... > > > damn amazing if you ask me! > > > > > > Daniel Kroehn > > > Datrats, quality Datsun performance parts > > > www.Datrats.com.au > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2001 11:36 AM > > > Subject: Re: V-6 or 4cyl? > > > > > > > > > > Errol, > > > > > > > > I am guessing that the only reason to chase smoother engine running is > to > > > remove the high frequency vibrations. > > > > This means that you can rev higher for longer before connecting > > > rod/piston/big-end bolt fatigue failures occur. > > > > And if your engine can rev 500 rpm more than the opposition, you can > get > > > 500 revs worth of power by changing cam profiles etc... > > > > If you are rev limited, then I suppose the only advantage is increased > > > reliability > > > > > > > > If you want to reduce rotational inertia you are better off lightening > the > > > flywheel. > > > > > > > > I wish that my engine was as well built as a race engine, an 8,000rpm > > > pick-a-part L20 mmm... > > > > > > > > Nick > > > > > > > > > > From: "E Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > Subject: RE: V-6 or 4cyl? > > > > > Date: 14/11/2001 21:12:38 > > > > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > > > > > Yep Daniel, > > > > > The Mitsi Astrons use counterbalance shafts. They have > counterweights > > > that > > > > > must be timed to knock out some of those secondary forces???? > > > > > If people are looking to stretch the grey matter in engine designs, > how > > > > > about looking at the balance factors in engines. The balance factor > is > > > the > > > > > ratio of the conrod and piston assembly masses compared to the crank > > > > > counterweight mass/es. A balance factor of unity would in theory > have > > > > > minimal secondary force losses except at 90 degrees and 270 degrees > > > crank > > > > > rotation rotation from TDC where the rod design causes some losses. > I > > > have > > > > > seen race Datto engines running balance factors as low as 30 percent > to > > > > > reduce rotational inertia. This is a testament to the strength of > their > > > > > basic design. People overseas are doing some interesting things with > > > balance > > > > > as most of the secondary forces are energy that is lost and wasted. > > > > > Any though or LOL's???? > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > Feral Errol > > > > > mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > http://www.datrats.com.au/ > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Daniel > Kroehn > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, 14 November 2001 11:43 AM > > > > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > Subject: Re: V-6 or 4cyl? > > > > > > > > > > Sorry trev, your right on that one! Static balancing is only used > when > > > the > > > > > distribution of mass is known or can be measured without dynamically > > > mving > > > > > the system. Its hard to put what is going on in a cylinder into > words!! > > > > > Little animations make things so much clearer! From what they tried > to > > > > > teach us, a six usually has its journals spaced 120 degrees apart to > > > make it > > > > > balance the primary forces of piston motion. The secondary force as > I > > > said > > > > > acts perpendicular to the direction of travel of the piston which > can > > > cause > > > > > a "rocking" moment inside the engine. That's why sometimes masses > which > > > > > counter-rotate to the direction of crankshaft movement are used, to > > > correct > > > > > this. Someone told me that the 2.6l astron engines have such an > > > > > arrangement, can anyone confirm this. > > > > > > > > > > Daniel Kroehn > > > > > Datrats, quality Datsun performance parts > > > > > www.Datrats.com.au > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: "Pooley, Trevor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 10:00 AM > > > > > Subject: RE: V-6 or 4cyl? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Daniel, > > > > > > > > > > > > My understanding of engine balancing is that only the rods and > pistons > > > are > > > > > > statically balanced. The reciprocating parts are dynamically > balanced. > > > > > > > > > > > > I found this link about L6 harmonics. > > > > > > http://www.zhome.com/ZCMnL/tech/harmonics.htm > > > > > > > > > > > > I know from people in my club that a good quality aftermarket > crank > > > front > > > > > > pulley is a must for L6 race engines as the harmonics are great > enough > > > to > > > > > > destroy the std front pulley or even snap crankshafts. > > > > > > > > > > > > The last time I saw a pic of an L6 crank it was not mearly an > extended > > > L4 > > > > > > crank with journals 180deg apart. Although I can't remeber the > exact > > > > > > configuration at the moment. > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > Trev > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > From: Daniel Kroehn [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, 14 November 2001 9:51 > > > > > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > Subject: Re: V-6 or 4cyl? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It hard to get your mind around this shit, I just had a three hour > > > > exam on > > > > > > balancing and the like at uni yesterday. Its not static balancing > > > like > > > > > when > > > > > > you get the pistons, rods, crank, flywheel combo balanced, its all > > > about > > > > > the > > > > > > dynamic balancing where froces from the piston firing create > forces > > > and > > > > > > moments which lead to imbalances inside the engine. Can someone > tell > > > me > > > > > why > > > > > > the secondary forces in a 6 completly cancel out as I'm not 100% > clear > > > on > > > > > > why, I guess I'm picturing it as a four only with two more > > > cylinders(hence > > > > > > primary force cancelation). > > > > > > > > > > > > Daniel Kroehn > > > > > > Datrats, quality Datsun performance parts > > > > > > www.Datrats.com.au > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 8:20 AM > > > > > > Subject: Re: V-6 or 4cyl? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Even if your engine is built by Swiss watchmakers with no > expense > > > > > spared, > > > > > > you cannot escape the unbalance caused by the engine > configuration. > > > > > > > But of course if the engine has been manufactured to sloppy > > > tolerances > > > > > > then it will be much worse than an engine built by our Swiss > mates. > > > > > > > Nick > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: "mark krawczuk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: V-6 or 4cyl? > > > > > > > > Date: 13/11/2001 21:39:44 > > > > > > > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hi, so what if their un balanced, anybody doing up a high > > > > > performance > > > > > > > > engine always gets the engine full > > > ballanced........................ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > mark k > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2001 2:30 PM > > > > > > > > Subject: RE: V-6 or 4cyl? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Beautiful... :) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, 13 November 2001 13:15 > > > > > > > > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: V-6 or 4cyl? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The theory behind engine configuration is about balance and > > > > > packaging > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A 'V' engine (except v12) is fundamentally unbalanced. i.e > they > > > > > shake > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > vibrate because all the rotating and reciprocating > components > > > are > > > > > not > > > > > > > > fully > > > > > > > > > balanced. > > > > > > > > > V engines are compact, this is their advantage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > An in-line four cylinder also unbalanced - but you can add > two > > > > > balance > > > > > > > > > shafts to compensate > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > straight 6 engines are fully balanced for most harmonics, > that > > > is > > > > > why > > > > > > BMW > > > > > > > > > still use them when a v-6 would be lighter, cheaper, and > more > > > > > compact. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Flat 'boxer' engines are fundamentally balanced and use a > very > > > > > short, > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > therefore stiff, crankshaft. > > > > > > > > > This is why Subaru and alfa-sud engines are so smooth and > > > responsive > > > > > > > > > compared with inline fours. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Straight 8's are fully balanced but the crankshaft is long > and > > > not > > > > > > > > > torsionally stiff and you'd need a long engine bay to fit it > all > > > in > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PS just because some engines are smoother than others it > doesn't > > > > > mean > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > they can't go just hard > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nick > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > so can you explain why? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Drag cars are v-8's because noone makes straight 8's... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If your theory is true why aren't all motors Vees? > > > > > > > > > > > What about the boxers? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > > > > > > From: James Marmont [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > > > > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, 13 November 2001 12:08 > > > > > > > > > > > To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: RE: V-6 or 4cyl? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > no way!!!!!! Thats why all top fuel drags are "V"s > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > > > > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > > > > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, 13 November 2001 12:42 PM > > > > > > > > > > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: RE: V-6 or 4cyl? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > that's just for space reasons I thought... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > > > > > > From: James Marmont [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > > > > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, 13 November 2001 11:20 > > > > > > > > > > > To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: RE: V-6 or 4cyl? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the "v" says it all > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > > > > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > > > > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, 13 November 2001 11:32 AM > > > > > > > > > > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: V-6 or 4cyl? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hey All, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Does anyone know whether it is the number of cylinders > or > > > the > > > > > > capacity > > > > > > > > > of an > > > > > > > > > > > engine that determines it's torque? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That is would a 2l V6 have more torque that a 2l 4 cyl?? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Iggy (dreaming again) Sandejas > > > > > > > > > > > Sydney NSW > > > > > > > > > > > Datsun 1600 FJ20t > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This message was sent through MyMail > http://www.mymail.com.au > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This message was sent through MyMail http://www.mymail.com.au > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This message was sent through MyMail http://www.mymail.com.au > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This message was sent through MyMail http://www.mymail.com.au > > > > > > > > --membersozdat------------------------------------------------------- OZDAT Mailing List Please Note:- Send (un)subscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Send submissions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] No unauthorised redistribution of this email http://www.ozdat.com/ozdatonline/index.htm http://www.ozdat.com/ozdatonline/listindex.html http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------
