I agree with you Sonny - I wasn't implying that you were "anti-mining". So sorry to anybody who took it that way. I agree the pipes shouldn't be used, even if they are legal. I read the original article before writing my response but I missed the part that said some caps have been falling off, but I do see that mentioned this new article. That's a shame. My caps were pretty tight because I've had to remove them to correct bad info that I carved into them. Still, many of mine have probably fallen off by now too. Another problem not mentioned is that the PVC beaks down and the pipes break, creating new openings... I've seen a lot of broken ones in the field. It's ultimately up to the regulators to define what markers are allowed, and if anybody doesn't comply, they will have to waste their time and money doing it right because their claim is invalid. That should be motivation enough to do it right going forward. They also say they can face fines through the migratory bird treaty act. But the problem is all the historic, abandoned markers. How do you fine people for something that was a condoned legal practice? I think the only way to get the problem fixed is for people like us to pull them out one by one when we happen upon them. But be careful, this a state issue because most states define how to mark federal mining claims. I think the posts are still legal in some states, and you could get in trouble for removing them. It may just be allowed in Nevada, so ask your local BLM office about it if you're in another state. I will inquire here in AZ. I'd like to point out that while thousands of claim markers are a huge hazard for birds, there are other hazards too. Litter is a huge problem and it's been illegal for a long time. The vast majority of the claims were staked with the blessing of the BLM. Nobody saw the hazard before now. The article mentions lizards. I've found hundreds of dead lizards, snakes and such in beer bottles/cans, and many dead deer and even a live one trapped in large dig holes. It felt good getting the live, though weak deer out of the hole. We fenced off the hole (it was an old prospect pit). I have also found dead animals that were trapped in abandoned cars. A lot of desert tortoises unfortunately die each year because of man-made hazards. It's amazing what you can find. Abandoned tires, man, what a mess they cause... Wildcat dumping is still rampant, and I'm not talking just about the huge problem of smugglers leaving acres of crap at transfer points. So folks really should think before they leave their trash the "vast empty desert". They should ask themselves, "would I dispose of this in my back yard or dump it on my living room floor?". Pack it in and pack it out. It's not hard concept, but how many times have you taken someone out and watched them throw stuff down?... And if you stake a claim, don't use hollow pipes to mark it, even if it's a legal method. I will not. o(:?-D Happy hunting, Mark
________________________________ From: "wahlpe...@aol.com" <wahlpe...@aol.com> To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com; mexicod...@aim.com; mina...@yahoo.com Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2012 9:51 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fw: PVC death trap Hi Doug, Mark and List, First thanks for all the great replies. I want to point out that I am NOT anti- mining. I have been a lifelong Nevada resident and I believe that mining and wildlife can co-exist in our State. My main purpose was to increase public awareness of this problem. I was saddened by what I found in the PVC marker and would like to see the problem cease. I believe many of these tragic deaths( if not all) can be avoided. Over the years while exploring the deserts of the Southwest I have crossed paths with many of the PVC markers. Some of the valleys are covered with markers as far as the eye can see. Many of the claims are long forgotten and the only reminder are the broken markers littering the Desert floor. In fact our State Bird the mountain bluebird has frequently fallen victim to these pipes. Here is a link to an article. PVC pipes trapping, killing birds by the thousands "A troubling find was that "about half of those markers that HAD PROTECTIVE CAPS put in place at some earlier point in time, now had those caps DISPLACED, on the ground nearby," said state biologist Christy Klinger. "So the hazard from the pipe became re-established."Here is a link to the article. http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/11/22/8955697-pvc-pipes-trapping-killing-birds-by-the-thousands Sorry for the incomplete post. I have a meteorite hunting trip planned today with a small army of PETA types to spread out into the desert knocking over snd deatroying other peoplesproperty markers and hopefully find a few meteorites. : ) Sonny -----Original Message----- From: MexicoDoug <mexicod...@aim.com> To: minador <mina...@yahoo.com>; meteorite-list <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com> Sent: Fri, Feb 17, 2012 11:11 pm Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fw: PVC death trap Hi Mark, everyone,It's too bad society needs rules but with so many humans overrrunning the wilderness, the best way to deal with it is work on a responsible collecting/mining/4-wheeling/detecting/etc. personal policy and showcase it for all to see - just like Sonny - then regulations are not zealously pursued and the offended find other causes more urgently in need and leave us alone.I hear you, but just like everything we seem to get involved in that is outdoors, a few bad apples can spoil it for the 90%+ of people who really are law abidng common sense toting individuals and that is where the regulators are forced to move, and in this case people that don't clean up after themselfs, maybe because they died, or some other possibly easily understandable reason.There are always people with different priorities and I agree a bird zealot may seem over the top for a meteorite hunter. But then again, a miner might not appreciate someone snooping over the above grounds rights of a meteorite hunter and if enough meteorite hunters are in areas with mining claims with enough rotten apples acting suspiciously in a place like Gold Basin for example, the PETA bird zealot becomes the miner and the meteorite hunter suffers.Who said, "common sense is not so common". It's been that way since I was a kid metal detecting. Even going back to the 1960's Handbook of metal detectors (the only outdated book on detectors I found as a 9-year old in the library, the advice is "cover your holes!" same principle, same danger, different day ;-) Look at the bright side of things. It won't give the bird an opportunity to evolve into building human tube traps that at night, lost meteorite hunters who are so cold that they scamper in them for the crucial welcomed cover thanking their instincts and happily fall asleep a little cold, but not frozen, only to wake up in the warming sun to find themselves inside a tomb which allows them to see the sky but is to slippery to lift themselves out no matter how much they beat themselves against the solitary confinement, all they while slowly getting cooked alive in a roman style birdmade oven, until their shreiks of nervous terror are extinguished by overheating bodies and a sudden onset of a peaceful dehydration.Kindest wsiehsDoug-----Original Message-----From: Mark Bowling <mina...@yahoo.com>To: Count Deiro <countde...@earthlink.net>; cetuspa <cetu...@shaw.ca>; meteorite-list <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>Sent: Sat, Feb 18, 2012 1:14 amSubject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fw: PVC death trapHi Count,They made it illegal to put up uncapped markers, but because nobody did anythingwith the old, markers that define mostly defunct claims (which should have beenan obvious outcome), they made all PVC markers illegal. I think they should still allow pipe to be used (PVC or otherwise), but that itmust be capped. And they can still allow people to remove (but leave in place)any uncapped markers (because they are important boundary markers). I think ablanket outlawing of any use of PVC as a marker is an over reaction. There is astrong anti-mining movement, and it is sad to give them the excuse to removeresponsible capped pipes, just because the pipe is PVC and they don't likeminers. I think a common sense should be applied. Happy hunting,Mark________________________________From: Count Deiro <countde...@earthlink.net>To: cetu...@shaw.ca; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.comSent: Friday, February 17, 2012 9:51 PMSubject: [meteorite-list] Fw: PVC death trapHi List and nature lovers in general,Mining provides Nevada with the second largest contribution to our State'seconomy in terms of jobs and money. The finding of ore bodies and the stakingand recording of those claims is a necessity. The use of white Schedule 40 PVCpipes evolved from first using Prince Albert tobacco tins to be the mostefficient and economical way of marking a claim.Everybody I know likes birds. They look at them. They take pictures of them.They paint them, they count them, keep them as pets... and they even hunt andeat them. They are a necessity of life certainly.So, do we have to pass a state mining regulation requiring placing a $1.49 pvccap on the pipe with a couple of taps of a hammer, or a swab of pvc glue andsave the little birdies? Or is it better to marshal a small army of PETA typesto spread out into the desert knocking over snd deatroying other peoplesproperty markers?Jesus must weep with the stupidity.Count DeiroIMCA 3536-----Forwarded Message----->From: Paul Gessler <>>Sent: Feb 17, 2012 8:06 PM>To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>Subject: [meteorite-list] PVC death trap>>That is truly one of the most amazing things I have heard.>I see those all the time hunting meteorites and never thought>much of them except that I noticed they disintegrate fast in the sun.>Obviously not fast enough for these birds. Thank you very much for>posting this and I too will leave none standing when I come across>them in the future. What kind of birds were they? 14 is just sadly>incredible!>>Paul Gessler>>______________________________________________>>Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html>Meteorite-list mailing list>Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/ listinfo/meteorite-list______________________________________________Visi t the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.htmlMeteorite-list mailing listMeteorite-list@meteoritecentral.comhttp://six.pairlist.net/mailman/li stinfo/meteorite-list ______________________________________________V isit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.htmlMeteorite-list mailing listMeteorite-list@meteoritecentral.comhttp://six.pairlist.net/mailman/li stinfo/meteorite-list______________________________________________Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.htmlMeteorite-list mailing listMeteorite-list@meteoritecentral.comhttp://six.pairlist.net/mailman/li stinfo/meteorite-list ______________________________________________ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list ______________________________________________ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
