Count Deiro
Sir, you have offended my pc sensitivity!
The politically correct terminology should be:
(....more fruit cakes than a Gerperson bakery)
Paul G
-----Original Message-----
From: Count Deiro via Meteorite-list
Sent: Saturday, January 16, 2016 9:39 AM
To: MEM ; Ann Cain ; Met-List
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] The US World Record Mars Meteorite Discovery
Hi All,
You gotta love the List....It produces more fruit cakes than a German
bakery.
Count Deiro
IMCA 3536 MetSoc
-----Original Message-----
From: MEM via Meteorite-list <[email protected]>
Sent: Jan 16, 2016 12:22 AM
To: Ann Cain <[email protected]>, Met-List
<[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] The US World Record Mars Meteorite Discovery
Hello Glyn-- Giving your claim all advantages with a cursory review: Using
your 0.22 cubic meter figure and putting in the highest measured martian
density of 3.48 gr per cc, I get 76kg launch weight and 38 Kg ( assuming
50% ablation by weight) landing under perfect conditions. My max weight
from the data i did have in my head, 28-32kg was not far off but not to
the order of magnitude difference-- it still does not add up to 800lbs.
The total weight is immaterial in one sense as to date there have been no
"meteorite showers" of martian material. The chaos of an impact, in my
mind, would not produce a coherent stream of meteoroids which would remain
together for the several hundred thousand up to millions orbits it takes
for martian material to arrive on earth. Paired finds are consistent with
atmospheric breakup supporting a single original mass.
I saw your extensive mineralogy and you may in fact have a meteorite-- or
impactiite but, I did not see where the mineral composition nor noble gases
plotted amongst plots of the entire range of meteorites. I don't know who
the keeper of data is for those plots but you could still plot yours on the
master graph. (I may have lots of stray data in my head but that isn't one
of them).
I think that the way you seem to misdirect technical answers and the way
what you do claim what you do, is buried amongst irrelevant comparisons
that lend skepticism to your report thus far. May I say that much of your
response is filled with irrelevant comparisons and non sequitur
conclusions. Apollo rocks have nothing to do with validating your claims.
If I unserstand, you did some of the mineralogy and sent some off for
analysis, but you won't name or revel any professional meteorist nor
geo-chemist nor anyone else accredited who has either reviewed your work or
through their own study. Yes or no? If so, what prevents you from
releasing it? What is the shock stage if you know it?
Elton
________________________________
From: Ann Cain via Meteorite-list <[email protected]>
To: Met-List <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, January 16, 2016 2:05 AM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] The US World Record Mars Meteorite Discovery
Met List,
I appreciate honest debate. I appreciate respect. The personal attacks need
to stop. I will never respond in kind.
Do you all not know the Met List policies?
General List Policies (i.e. The Rules)
1. Posts need to relate in some way to meteorites.
2. Be courteous and professional at all times.
3. No Personal Attacks.
...
I have not attacked the scientific community in anyway. I'm a part of it.
I'm just exposing that unethical behavior can happen behind the scenes at
times. I'm talking about a few individuals only. The greater amount of
scientists and technicians I worked with were very professional and are
wonderful people to work with.
First I would like to respond to Elton who emailed me off-list. Elton you
are incorrect. It is possible to have a mass impact eject/launch off of
Mars to a diameter of approx. 22.0m, perhaps melted, but with oblique
impacts they can launch off the surface solid. The TKW of my discovery is
greater than the mass of Moon rocks we brought back during the all the
Apollo missions, which is approx. 382.0kg of mass. My discovery isn't a
single mass but many fragments from a heterogeneous igneous rock mass that
was impact ejected/launched off the surface of Mars, or just below the
surface of Mars. The largest masses of the fragments are larger than
Zugami. It is mostly extrusive igneous rock from Mars.
See pg.337
Impact and Explosion Crater Ejecta, Fragment Size, and Velocity
http://web.gps.caltech.edu/~sue/TJA_LindhurstLabWebsite/ListPublications/Papers_pdf/Seismo_1314.pdf
You all need to educate yourself regarding a very dark historical event
within our Meteorite community here in the USA, The Old Woman Meteorite. It
is very true that even one of the most esteemed institutions of science in
our nation The Smithsonian Institute can get it really really wrong. The
Golden Rule is to treat others as you would like to be treated. Geologist
Joe De Kehoe gets the whole story very right. I would recommend buying his
book, The Silence of the Sun. Unfair and unjust laws are simply no law at
all. It's lawlessness. There is a higher law of fairness and justice. You
can not ignore the original discoverer. This World Record Mars Discovery
will benefit the People. It's the People's National treasure. The People
are to benefit. I've said that all along and will continue to do so. I'm
doing the right thing.
I know a greater law ...
Psalm 24:1 NLT
"A psalm of David. The earth is the LORD's, and everything in it. The world
and all its people belong to him."
Geologist Joe De Kehoe writes the entire story:...
Chapter One, The Old Woman Meteorite, The story and the controversy that
resulted from the discovery and removal of the second largest meteorite
ever found in the U.S.
http://gfoundit-mars.com/owm3word.docx
Glyn Howard
________________________________________
From: Count Deiro <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, January 15, 2016 9:59 AM
To: Gmail; Ann Cain; Met-List
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] The US World Record Mars Meteorite Discovery
Mendy and All,
I have a queasy feeling in the pit of my stomach. My nose is twitching and
I smell an unpleasant odor. Like I'm standing near an outhouse in Colorado.
Count Deiro
IMCA 3536 MetSoc
Message-----
From: Gmail via Meteorite-list <[email protected]>
Sent: Jan 15, 2016 5:26 AM
To: Ann Cain <[email protected]>, Met-List
<[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] The US World Record Mars Meteorite Discovery
There is no conspiracy except the one you have created to bring some
misguided legitimacy to your story and your rocks.
You also do an immense disservice to our dedicated scientist and
meteoriticists. They have no malicious intent to prejudicially reject your
rocks. Their motive is furthering science not protecting the financial
interests of dealers and collectors. You are accusing the same group of
scientists who in recent years identified new Martian meteorites like
Black Beauty. My point is that a new and exciting discovery would not be
suppressed because it would benefit the scientist personally and the
community at large.
If you actually looked at market trends, you would soon discover that
prices for Martian Shergottites are falling because of an oversupply. Once
you get past the 1 or 2kg the scientific community would EVER need, the
rest would only be of concern for the collector community and the price
would be set by any number of factors such as but not limited to supply.
Finally, I am offended that you refer to Tikkun Olam (repairing or doing
good for the benefit of the world). You are doing quite the opposite and
what is worse doing so for ego and personal benefit. When Yom Kippur
comes, I can only hope that you will be honest with yourself, atone for
lashon hara (derogatory speech) and move on.
Respectfully,
Mendy Ouzillou
On Jan 15, 2016, at 1:59 AM, Ann Cain via Meteorite-list
<[email protected]> wrote:
Meteorite List,
Recall:
Both my sister Ann Cain (who opened the email account) and I, Glyn Howard,
use the same email account:
Ann Cain, Glyn Howard
gfndit(at)hotmail.com
This has been a long time coming ... for many years now I have been a
reader of the Meteorite List.
I know this discovery sounds Wow! Unbelievable. Surreal. Pick your
adjective. But it is what is is. All the physical empirical evidences
prove it. I'm not in fear of re-confirmation. I welcome it. I know what it
is. It's all repeatable (empirical).
I appreciate well-known PhD members from the Meteorite List who have
contacted me off-line. I will respond. Please give me time.
The evidence for the typical Mars meteorite key type specimens for this
discovery:
GSA and GSB
http://gfoundit-mars.com/TheEvidence.html
http://gfoundit-mars.com/TheEvidenceGSA.html
http://gfoundit-mars.com/TheEvidenceGSB.html
The Gallery of US World Record Mars Meteorite specimens:
http://gfoundit-mars.com/GalleryOfImages.html
I will be putting-up/finishing the gallery of World Record Mars meteorite
specimens by this Passover.
I do not want to hurt anyone's professional reputation. I'm not a mean or
vengeful person. The full complete back story and certain people's
identities will remain private. Just know there is a private history in
the background of this incredible discovery and full story. Several very
well known PhDs at Universities in the meteoritics community, who are
meteorite analysts, members of the Meteoritcal Society, and perhaps at
times over the years have even posted here on the Meteorite List, have
held some of these specimens in their hands, have done tests. They know. I
knew they were meteorites before I came to them. I knew that they were
achondrites. However, at the time I couldn't prove the parent body. I
didn't know how.
The moment I wasn't willing to share or reveal the discovery site is the
moment the road-blocks, the walls, the disinformation began toward me.
(Extrusive igneous Dacite, an evolved lava, is not a sedimentary rock!
Lol.) We've seen this kind of behavior in the meteoritcs community before.
It's nothing new, sadly. This is a dark history of the meteoritics world
unfortunately. How many very rare important discoveries have been lost to
the world of science and to mankind because those in research and academia
have played unethical games of gate-keeping and have refused to just do
their job and just do pure science and do the analysis honestly and
ethically without games, without gate-keeping, without attempting to
wrestle from the discoverer the original discovery site? The discoverer
has a right to withhold the discovery site to guard their discovery and
its full value, and to protect it. How many people over the many years
couldn't persevere against this wall, this unethical gate-k
e
e
ping because they didn't have the prerequisite skills or knowledge and
they weren't able to realize that they were lied to or purposefully fed
disinformation, and as a result had to walk away and give up, with an
incredible treasure of scientific knowledge and wealth in their hand? It
could of been very different. It could have been a very cooperative
process of discovery for everyone.
The original discoverer has rights. I've said it before , and I'll keep
saying it ...
It takes discoverers to make scientific discoveries. Doing science and
making scientific discoveries is not a crime. There is a right to protect
discoveries and intellectual property.
"Contrary to their public image, scientists are normal, flawed human
beings. They are as capable of prejudice, covetousness, pride,
deceitfulness, etc., as anyone."
-- David Weatherall, "Conduct Unbecoming," American Scientist (Vol.93,
January-February 2005), p.73
http://www.americanscientist.org/bookshelf/pub/conduct-unbecoming
As it turns out I'm rather glad it happened the way it did. Nothing like
purposeful road-blocks, gate-keeping, and disinformation thrown at me to
motivate me to learn to how to do it myself. As the old adage goes, if you
want something done right you have to do it yourself. The Earth Sciences
are my background. I have the prerequisite skills. It took time but I did
it. I'm still learning. I never stop learning. I didn't do it in a vacuum.
I had much help and assistance along the way, from very good, professional
scientists and technicians who were very ethical and very knowledgeable
and very helpful, and then they did their assigned jobs very
professionally and willingly. One day when the story can be told
completely in detail I will certainly call out personally all those who
helped me. The others who didn't, I will anonymously thank for motivating
me to learn meteoritics and to learn to do it on my own. I have enjoyed
the scientific process immensely. Much more to come. And I c
a
n
prove what I know.
Why when making the discovery of meteorites in the field, why then give
away the scientific analysis and identification process to another? Why
not learn how to do it for yourself so that your knowledge of the science
of meteoritics increases? Why give away that joy of this discovery
process? Sure I understand that many can't do it or perhaps they aren't
interested in the whole scientific process, but I am. Why not go after the
full credit for the full discovery -- from the field, to the lab, all the
way to the publication? Sure there are tests I cannot do, others will do
these tests afterwards. However, it doesn't change the fact that I made
this WR meteorite field discovery, and in the lab I proved they are
meteorites, proved the petrology, and then proved the Parent Body of
origin for this achondrite meteorite find. The PB is Mars. I was able to
prove all of this first. Others will re-confirm second. And others will go
much further thereafter. There is an incredible amount of pu
r
e
science about Mars to learn from this full discovery. I would like to be
intimately involved in that with my full discovery. I'm sure this US
World Record Mars Meteorite Discovery will make many careers for many
scientists for a long time to come. NASA Houston Space Command will have
to add another adjacent building to Building 31, or at least expand, just
to store the new Mars material. I have no doubt about that.
If a tree falls in the forest and no-one is there to hear it or witness
the event ... guess what it still fell! The event still happened and made
a sound. Likewise the discovery of and the science of meteorites
(meteoritics) still takes place outside of the formal controlling walls of
The Meteoritical Society and official publication in The Bulletin. There
will be time for that down the road.
When a World Record discovery occurs on this level, you do not give the
keys away to the discovery. I have a right to guard my discovery and its
full value to help the greatest number of people. It is possible to make
incredible discoveries, do incredible and exciting science, and achieve
social justice for many many people all at the same time. It's the right
thing to do. I intend to do just that. There is a reason this discovery
was given to me to make. Tikkun olam. Baruch HaShem.
Glyn Howard
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