I am not interested in starting another pairing wars argument. The
archive is full of these discussions. In the past, I pointing out those
who were self-pairing, piggy-backing and stealing nomenclature from
official classifications I was involved with. Many dealers thought they
were entitled to piggyback my hard work and I let them know that what
they were doing is nothing short of fraud. Piggybacking also has a
negative effect on collectors who do not want undocumented stones
competing with officially classified specimens in their collections.
This widespread and unsavory practice hurts honest dealers and
collectors alike.
Simply posting a bulletin entry is not enough. The name of the person
who submitted the specimens must match or a chain of custody to that
name must be clearly spelled out for provenance purposes. The number of
stones listed in the bulletin cannot be exceeded and weights all need to
be in alignment.
In my case, yes, I posted links to the bulletin where my name was
mentioned so the chain of custody was unbroken and well-established.
This is not the case for most planetary listings on eBay.
Lazy and dishonest Dealers who take shortcuts and bypass protocol are
driving honest people away.
Who would want to pass down or inherit an undocumented stone thinking it
is planetary to find out later, it is a terrestrial breccia? Our
actions now will be remembered well into the future. What kind of
legacy do you want to leave behind?
Life only happens once and there is no time for rehearsal so you better
do things the best you can the first time.
Adam
On 10/10/2017 4:00 AM, Graham Ensor via Meteorite-list wrote:
You say...."It is up to dealers to prove what they are selling is
legitimate, not collectors/buyers after the transaction. Why should a
buyer have to ask for provenance and the chain of custody directly to
the person named in a Meteoritical Bulletin? It is up to dealers to
provide this information up front. Who in their right mind would pay
top dollar for untested and unclassified stones being put on the market
as planetary pieces?"
The answer to that is that you would Adam....that is exactly how you
first bought in numerous rare pieces from NWA and then got them
classified and published. You then sell them with a link to the Bulletin
and thus the science....no more chain of provenance than that. Just your
own and lab certification.
This is exactly what I see happening at the moment with many other
dealers and even just collectors now...they are all doing the same as
you did and proudly bringing new material to science and the collectors
market. I see nothing wrong with that and I do not see all this so
called fraudulent material on the market. If you are seeing this
meteorwrong or terrestrial breccia material being sold by the dealers we
would be very glad if you could share links with us to that material or
self paired so we are aware of it and can decide ourselves. (Please let
us know how you know it is terrestrial breccia). I would certainly
telling people. I called one leading dealer out recently because they
were saying the red coating on some recent lunar was fusion crust and
thus rare when it is actually desert soil when examined at the lab and
easily cleaned off. There are always a few amateurs and fraudsters, not
well known dealers...trying on...but you seem to be saying more than that.
I admit people have to be careful when buying and need to see that the
material has been analysed at the lab if being sold as a classified
type. Those buying unclassified material have to take the risks like you
and I have always done and then it stays unclassified unless we make the
effort to donate parts and get the science done.
I just don't see what you are seeing and many other dealers are me
asking what you are talking about...please share something concrete with
us if you are seeing this. It is important for the confidence of the
market in general.
Graham
On Mon, Oct 9, 2017 at 6:00 PM, Adam Hupe via Meteorite-list
<meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
<mailto:meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>> wrote:
It is up to dealers to prove what they are selling is legitimate,
not collectors/buyers after the transaction. Why should a buyer
have to ask for provenance and the chain of custody directly to the
person named in a Meteoritical Bulletin? It is up to dealers to
provide this information up front. Who in their right mind would
pay top dollar for untested and unclassified stones being put on the
market as planetary pieces?
If a dealer is too lazy to follow protocol then why should he/she be
rewarded? There is no value added by simply reselling untested
stones that are accompanied with stolen nomenclature and Meteortical
Bulletin entries.
Professionals see it as there is no such thing as an unclassified
lunar. It is either lunar or it is not. There is no gray area.
That is like somebody placing quartz (Herkimer Diamonds) on the
market and trying to sell them as an unclassified natural diamonds.
There are over 167,000 loose diamonds being offered on eBay. Guess
how many are real? Most educated prospective buyers will not
consider a stone without GIA certification. Buyers learned the hard
way when spending thousands of dollars for worthless paste.
I see terrestrial breccias being offered up as lunar material on a
consistent bases thus the acid test. If it fizzes or you cannot get
a direct chain of custody to the classifying laboratory, you may
consider asking for an immediate refund. Save your hard earned
money. There is something to be learned from other markets where
buyers have been stiffed.
Adam
On 10/9/2017 2:55 AM, Graham Ensor wrote:
I'm afraid it works the other way round too Adam...you would
have to have a piece analysed by an expert to say what you are
saying rather than just look at the pieces to see and conclude
what they are. Every single piece of my lunar has been to the
leading lab specializing in meteorites in the UK and been
recorded, weighed and analysed to show it is lunar. I have the
write up and science write up submitted for classification if
you wish to see it. It is likely part of this new bigger find
this year and matches the other material around that I see for
what that is worth.
Which reputable dealers are you accusing of selling the lunar
material you think is not lunar by just looking at it? I'm sure
you should pass that information on to help the community.
On Mon, Oct 9, 2017 at 1:33 AM, Adam Hupe via Meteorite-list
<meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
<mailto:meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>
<mailto:meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
<mailto:meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>>> wrote:
A lot of the garbage being sold as lunar meteorites by
so-called
reputable dealers will not even pass the fizz test.
http://geology.com/minerals/acid-test.shtml
<http://geology.com/minerals/acid-test.shtml>
<http://geology.com/minerals/acid-test.shtml
<http://geology.com/minerals/acid-test.shtml>>
Collectors are being fleeced out of thousands of dollars by
terrestrial limestone breccias, some of which can be found
in the
Atlas Mountains near an impact structure. I would avoid or
ask for a
refund on any material that fizzes on a cut surface! I remember
seeing the same crustless, caliche-rich material offered up
at the
Tucson Gem and Mineral show several years ago for
$50.00/gram. Now
it is being offered on eBay and other venues due to a somewhat
similar appearance to genuine Lunar meteorites. I do not
know if
refunds were given to those who purchase this terrestrial
material
in the past or not.
This is but one example of why all stones suspected as being
planetary should be formally tested and classified.
If in doubt, throw it out or demand a refund.
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