MHCUG is a great group and has been helpful to me in the past as well.
I am sorry that they are in a tight spot, financially and might well
find that their members would find the group worth higher dues.

It is a truism that Linux is cheaper, because having to retrain all your
people is a considerable expense.

Sometimes the best deal is to just pay for a piece of proprietary
software that will install quickly, self-configure, and solve your
problem.  If your company's systems are down and you can't service your
customers, you need to get it back online, this minute!

The time that I have spent learning Linux wasn't cost effective, but,
once it got done, I got a laptop that loads faster, has more free
memory, is virus free.

 Mark Wallace



On Mon, 2010-07-26 at 22:08 -0400, Jeff Dowley wrote:
> Hello,
> Without an vitriol or flaming I hope to make a few points:
> 
> What John Mort wrote on the topic fits me well too. Thanks John!
> 
> I too see PC's and devices as tools and I just use either what tool I know
> is best for the job, or the tool that I have sufficient skills to use. It
> takes time to learn new things and no one has time to know it all. No one
> should waste the time of those on this list just to say they hate MS, etc.
> But it has happened here more than a few times and it doesn't color the
> MHVLUG well if allowed.
> 
> Frankly, some of the stuff written attacking my agnostic side of the fence
> wasn't well thought out by those that lowered their rhetorical standards to
> merely a rant about how antiquated/evil/? some non-Linux software/companies
> seem to them. Personally I don't think everything free is all honey and
> spice as a rule, but you won't read me attacking anyone that wears
> rose-colored lenses. Please consider doing us agnostics the return courtesy.
> 
> 
> I attend and read because I want to know Linux better, but that doesn't mean
> to the point of exclusion of other solutions. One thing this group is good
> at is informing each other of highly specialized tools or the right
> programming approach for problems that themselves are not usually of the
> type that can be a help to Linux newcomers.
> 
> To let folks know a bit about my background and how I fit in here, please
> allow me to tell you a few short things. There is a purpose for writing
> about my background. So,... I regularly attend the monthly presentations,
> but find them over my head at times (gasp!). I both attended and worked in
> Computing Services at Carnegie Mellon for many years and at the time I
> needed to be fluent in MS, Apple, SunOS, Solaris, plus Cisco, etc. So it's
> not every day that Linux topics seem so removed from my ability to use them
> in my life. But I have found that a number of the bits people here help each
> other out on either require working in a enterprise environment or require
> programming skills to implement. Sadly, I don't see myself as a programmer,
> nor do I think other mortal newcomers to the LUG would either.
> 
> Continuing on to clear up a few mis-conceptions that were paraded here. The
> MHCUG (PC users group) does charge $35/yr for membership. But it has nothing
> to do with a desire not to be free. All dues go towards paying for the
> meeting spaces we use, group insurance against slip and fall type lawsuits,
> and a few other minor things that keep the gov't happy to allow us to
> operate as a 501(c)(3). We worked very very hard last year to lower our
> costs of meeting space and found ourselves at the barrier of lowest cost we
> can find anywhere. And as an aside, the entire MHCUG is near a precipice of
> heading for extinction since even the $35 doesn't cover our costs.
> 
> So those posts that stuck out their tongues at the MHCUG need to understand
> just how lucky you are that you don't have to pay for your space, or
> insurance or ISP fees, etc. And no, it didn't seem nice as to me as the
> President of the MHCUG to find ourselves part of a flame post.
> 
> And lastly I would like to tentatively vote to keep allowing the digest type
> of subscription. But after the recent posts I'm not sure as a digest reader
> it's worth it. The digest is nearly impossible to read by way of seeking the
> signal vs. the noise. I find very few of the posts here bother to trim off
> the prior message and .sig files when replying.
> 
> So perhaps it would be easier to just go without digest and then have better
> threading. 
> 
> Sean, you have my support in whatever decision you need to make to make this
> work.
> 
> 
> Jeff Dowley
> [email protected]
> MHCUG President 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
> Of [email protected]
> Sent: Monday, July 26, 2010 7:02 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: mhvlug Digest, Vol 35, Issue 32
> 
> 
> Today's Topics:
> 
>    1. Re: We need to redefine ourselves,      or re read the definition
>       that we already have (John D. Mort)
>    2. Re: We need to redefine ourselves,      or re read the definition
>       that we already have (Michael Quick)
>    3. Re: NYC DebConf "Debian Day" August 1 Sunday 10 AM to 6:40      PM
>       (Chris Knadle)
>    4. Re: We need to redefine ourselves,      or re read the definition
>       that we already have (Chris Knadle)
>    5. The preponderance of OS X in the Linux/SysAdmin community
>       (Derek J. Balling)
>    6. list suggestion (Dan Simoes)
>    7. Re: list suggestion (Joseph Apuzzo)
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2010 16:48:25 -0400
> From: "John D. Mort" <[email protected]>
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [mhvlug] We need to redefine ourselves,  or re read the
>       definition      that we already have
> 
> 
> > Sorry for the rant, but the group is at a crossroads. Open source
> > computing is changing so quickly that we need to remember our roots and
> > objectives.
> >
> 
> I don't know.  I consider myself a computer pragmatist and have no
> qualms or hard feelings about using proprietary software when there
> aren't any reasonable Open Source options or when the proprietary
> product is superior enough to the Open Source alternatives to make it
> worth paying or subscribing as necessary to gain access to it.  But
> while I enjoy poking fun as Microsoft and often dislike the manner in
> which they wield the influence they have over the computing world, I
> have no real venom toward the company and would be inclined to argue
> that my life is ultimately better in a world where they exist as they
> do than if there never was such a company.  I just don't share the
> venom toward them that I see expressed sometimes.
> 
> I accept that I'm in the minority here, but I don't believe that I'm
> the only person with this view.  For myself, this list is primarily a
> resource for handling problems with Linux, even when said problems
> revolve around getting Linux and Windows (or some other proprietary
> system) to play nice.  As a result, I tend to take more of a larger
> tent view of what this group is than what you've expressed here.
> Maybe I'm wrong about that, but I figured I ought to speak up in case
> others felt the same way.
> 
> --
> John D. Mort
> http://john.mort.net
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Mid-Hudson Valley Linux Users Group                  http://mhvlug.org
> http://mhvlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mhvlug
> 
> Upcoming Meetings (6pm - 8pm)                         MHVLS Auditorium
>   Aug 4 - Samba
>   Sep 1 - BOINC
>   Oct 6 - Creating Firefox Extensions

-- 
Robert Mark Wallace
60 Delaware Road
Newburgh, NY 12550-3802
Telephone: (845) 566-0586

Visit my Blog, Mark Wallace Following Christ, at


> http://markwallacefollowingchrist.blogspot.com/
> 

_______________________________________________
Mid-Hudson Valley Linux Users Group                  http://mhvlug.org
http://mhvlug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mhvlug

Upcoming Meetings (6pm - 8pm)                         MHVLS Auditorium
  Aug 4 - Samba
  Sep 1 - BOINC
  Oct 6 - Creating Firefox Extensions

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