You're an old guy like me, the days when a 10 spot would buy a gasket. Good luck with things! BZ
-----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Bruce Labitt Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2011 8:14 PM To: MiataPower Subject: Re: Diagnosing Bad Water Pump, or Heater Core or? On 4/12/2011 11:17 AM, Bill Cardell wrote: > Interesting intro ;-) Head gaskets don't fail too often on these > engines, despite the iron block/aluminum head, although all bets are off > on a high mileage turbo car such as Bruce's. If it were me, at that > mileage I'd just pick up a used engine or take the opportunity to do a > 1.8 swap. It is a 94, so I have the original 1.8. It is only 105K on it. IIRC 65K with boost. Barely broken in :) I'll run a leakdown test anyways - should check for all sorts of woes. Hopefully won't be too surprising. If the results of the leakdown test are surprising, well, then time for a used engine. Probably build up the old one if it isn't mucked up. My first car I bought (not a miata) had a blown head gasket. I bought it for $100, knowing it had a bad gasket. Drove it home with bad HG. That was fun, though a little slow. Felpro gasket cost < $10. Twenty minutes later, (including a warp check, ) got that little sucker running again. I got my money's worth out of that little beater. -Bruce > Your test sounds like a good one for the head gasket. It might be worth > looking under a Miata hood to see that the water pump is not driven by > the timing belt before condemning a stack of people... > I have seen an impeller spin on the shaft only once in the past 30 years > of wrench turning, on an Audi Fox. It's conceivable on a Miata, but not > where I'd look first. > > > Bill Cardell > TurboDog's Dad > Flyin' Miata > 1-800-359-6967 (sales) > 970-464-5600 (tech support) > www.flyinmiata.com > www.fmwestfield.com > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of bill zimmerman > Sent: Monday, April 11, 2011 9:07 PM > To: 'Ross Kuhns'; 'Bruce Labitt' > Cc: 'MiataPower' > Subject: RE: Diagnosing Bad Water Pump, or Heater Core or? > > OK, you admit to getting it PFH (pretty effin hot) and now all it will > do is overheat. Aluminum head, iron block, surefire recipe for head > gasket failure, but all the dreamers want to put a pump on it and roll. > Broken shaft in water pump? With the timing belt still running in place, > be sure and get pictures of that. Try filling it with water when it's > stone cold and put a pressure test on the cooling system (you can borrow > a tester from AutoZone). Leave it under pressure for about 30 minutes > and see if there is any drop in pressure, indicating a leak. No pressure > drop, start it and try to warm it up, not cooking hot, but well off the > cold side of the dial, and run a compression test while hot. I have seen > overheated gaskets that would only start to leak as engine temps started > to rise. If you do the timing belt, water pump deal without doing this > and it still overheats, you will be very pissed at yourself for a long, > long time. > > I haven't been on this list for a long time but I have pulled wrenches > for a lot of my life and the more I read here, the more I am convinced > that many of you should not be allowed to own wrenches. > > Best of luck and I really hope that the dream comes true and you don't > have a head gasket problem. BZ > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ross Kuhns > Sent: Monday, April 11, 2011 10:25 PM > To: Bruce Labitt > Cc: MiataPower > Subject: Re: Diagnosing Bad Water Pump, or Heater Core or? > > Well, if the pump shaft broke or something, I still think you should > just pull the belt and see if it spins very freely, or grinds or does > some damned 'wrong' thing. > > Didn't you have the timing belt done recently? did they do the water > pump too? should be under warranty 'if' it is the pump... > > > Ross > > On Apr 11, 2011, at 9:13 PM, Bruce Labitt wrote: > >> On 4/11/2011 9:00 PM, Donni wrote: >>> Sounds water pump-y..... >>> >>> >> Grumble. So it would seem. Anything else I *should* be fixing while >> I'm > in there? >> 1) water pump >> 2) timing belt / seals >> 3) ? >> >> Bruce >> >>> On Apr 11, 2011, at 7:33 PM, Bruce >>> Labitt<[email protected]> > wrote: >>>> On 4/11/2011 7:05 PM, Larry Alster wrote: >>>>> For the freeze plug to be your problem you would have to be losing > fluid >>>>> from the system. Are you?? >>>>> >>>> No, I have no visible leak. I am unaware of any leak. My first > indication of trouble was an overheat this spring. I let it idle to > warm up. While I was doing something else I noticed the rad cap > geysering. I shut it down rather quickly. When it cooled down, I > refilled the radiator. > Fired it up again and it overheats. >>>> Tried running without the cap. Did not see evidence of obvious flow >>>> in > radiator. No obvious bubbles like a bad head gasket leak to coolant. >>>> Bruce >>>>> Larry Alster >>>>> >>>>> 91 Miata White Knight >>>>> 92 Miata Silver Bullet >>>>> 92 Miata Honey B >>>>> 04 MSM MX-5 Whooosh >>>>> 06 WRX STi Subie >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: [email protected] >>>>> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Bruce >>>>> Labitt >>>>> Sent: Monday, April 11, 2011 7:04 PM >>>>> To: MiataPower >>>>> Subject: Re: Diagnosing Bad Water Pump, or Heater Core or? >>>>> >>>>> On 4/11/2011 12:16 PM, Donni Howell wrote: >>>>>> I may have missed it among all the replies, but I didn't see any >>>>>> mention of core plugs (freeze plug/expansion plug or whatever you >>>>>> choose to call them). I had a '96 that would overheat all the >>>>>> time. I chased the problem for almost a year. Replaced radiator, >>>>>> cap, had recently replaced water pump. Nothing worked and I had >>>>>> given up. I lost some coolant but never found a leak. >>>>>> >>>>>> One day while doing some suspension work on the left side of the >>>>>> car, I noticed a rusty streak on the side of the block - under the >>>>>> exhaust manifold. I followed that up to a hole in the block where >>>>>> a core plug used to live. It was a hidden leak that must have >>>>>> burned off any trace of water while driving, so I never saw any >>>>>> water on the ground. I replaced it with one from Mazda (2 from >>>>>> NAPA wouldn't fit for some reason) and problem solved. >>>>>> >>>>> Nahh, did not even think about freeze plugs. Did you replace them >>>>> with the engine in the car? >>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, Apr 10, 2011 at 9:58 PM, bill zimmerman >>>>>> <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Now we're at the root of the problem, why did it >>>>>> overheat, not because of >>>>>> the heater core. It may have had a bad radiator, >>>>>> leaking and you didn't >>>>>> notice it, or it might be a bad water pump, also >>>>>> leaking and you didn't >>>>>> notice it, either way, low on coolant and overheating. >>>>>> Very good chance you >>>>>> have a warped head and leaking head gasket at this >>>>>> point, check for water in >>>>>> the oil, oil residue in the radiator, and do a >>>>>> compression check. Go forward >>>>>> from there, from the way you describe it I'm pretty >>>>>> sure you are going to >>>>>> find a head gasket problem. BZ >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: [email protected] >>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]> >>>>>> [mailto:[email protected] >>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]>] On Behalf >>>>>> Of Bruce Labitt >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2011 7:59 PM >>>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]> >>>>>> Subject: Re: Diagnosing Bad Water Pump, or Heater Core or? >>>>>> >>>>>> On 4/10/2011 7:42 PM, bill zimmerman wrote: >>>>>> > Late coming in on this and have not read other posts >>>>>> but if your problem >>>>>> > came after any cooling system work, hose >>>>>> replacement, etc, make sure you >>>>>> > don't have an air lock in the system, which >>>>>> frequently will result in no >>>>>> > heat from the heater while everything else functions >>>>>> normally. Would not >>>>>> > suspect a water pump problem if the motor is not >>>>>> overheating or signs of >>>>>> > leakage around the pump. BZ >>>>>> > >>>>>> >>>>>> Original problem - overheat - radiator cap let go - >>>>>> coolant >>>>>> everywhere. Replaced cap, added water - trouble ever >>>>>> since. Engine overheats. >>>>>> >>>>>> Could be air lock. How do you get rid of it? I used a >>>>>> coolant funnel attached to radiator cap. Attempted to >>>>>> squeeze hoses... Car is not level right now. Front >>>>>> end is >>>>>> on jackstands. Problem? >>>>>> >>>>>> > -----Original Message----- >>>>>> > From: [email protected] >>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]> >>>>>> > [mailto:[email protected] >>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]>] On Behalf >>>>>> Of Bruce Labitt >>>>>> > Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2011 7:22 PM >>>>>> > To: [email protected] >>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]> >>>>>> > Subject: Re: Diagnosing Bad Water Pump, or Heater >>>>>> Core or? >>>>>> > >>>>>> > On 4/10/2011 5:25 PM, Ross Kuhns wrote: >>>>>> >> If the hoses are only a year old, they should come off; >>>>>> >> take a pair of slotted type pliers/grips and you can >>>>>> >> usually work them back and forth a touch as you pull - >>>>>> >> tool is set perpendicular to the pipe/hose. Of course >>>>>> >> don't squeeze too hard, those pipes are soft. If >>>>>> you try >>>>>> >> to confirm flow thru the core, make sure not to use too >>>>>> >> much psi, system doesn't run under too much >>>>>> pressure (what >>>>>> >> 13psi?). >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> Ross >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> On Apr 10, 2011, at 4:34 PM, Ken Bogart wrote: >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >>> I would flush the heater core to verify flow. If its >>>>>> >>> blocked and needs replacement, a temporary bypass will >>>>>> >>> certainly work to keep you on the road. >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> Ken Bogart >>>>>> >>> ----------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> >>> 96 Montego Blue FFS Coldside (His) >>>>>> >>> 97 Black& Tan (Hers) >>>>>> >>> 90 Crystal White (sons) >>>>>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>> >>> http://www.miatacare.com<http://www.miatacare.com/> >>>>>> >>> http://www.cincimiata.com<http://www.cincimiata.com/> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> http://www.bcchallenger.org<http://www.bcchallenger.org/> >>>>>> >>> MiataMail.com<http://MiataMail.com> list owner >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> On Sun, Apr 10, 2011 at 2:32 PM, Bruce Labitt >>>>>> >>> <[email protected] >>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]> >>>>>> >>> <mailto:[email protected] >>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> I'm trying to diagnose if I have either a bad >>>>>> water >>>>>> >>> pump, or just a clogged heater core. The >>>>>> hose at the >>>>>> >>> output of the heater core has been spliced to >>>>>> insert >>>>>> >>> a GM temperature sensor in the line. [Other >>>>>> than the >>>>>> >>> temp sensor splice, the cooling system is stock.] >>>>>> >>> The GM sensor is reading correctly - it >>>>>> reads cold >>>>>> >>> and the heater line *is* cold. However, at >>>>>> the back >>>>>> >>> of the head, the sensor which goes to the >>>>>> dash reads >>>>>> >>> very hot (after the engine has warmed up, of >>>>>> course). >>>>>> >>> It is as if there is no flow out the back of >>>>>> the head. >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> Things I've tried: >>>>>> >>> 0. Removed thermostat, put housing back. Still >>>>>> >>> overheats. Have new tstat, but have not >>>>>> installed. >>>>>> >>> 1. Remove GM sensor splice, and inspect the >>>>>> inline >>>>>> >>> housing. Can see daylight through the hose >>>>>> >>> connections. Conclusion: temp sensor housing >>>>>> is not >>>>>> >>> clogged and not impeding coolant flow. >>>>>> >>> 2. Added classic coolant flush tee in place >>>>>> of the >>>>>> >>> inline temp sensor. Flushed 12 gallons thru >>>>>> system. >>>>>> >>> Pretty ugly looking coolant, if I must say >>>>>> so. It >>>>>> >>> still does not quite look like clean water, >>>>>> but it is >>>>>> >>> far more water like than before. >>>>>> >>> 3. Put back GM temp sensor. >>>>>> >>> 4. Refilled with water. Installed a burp >>>>>> bucket on >>>>>> >>> radiator, ran engine. Filled bucket 1/3 way. >>>>>> Bottom >>>>>> >>> rad hose does not seem like it is full of >>>>>> coolant. >>>>>> >>> Feels like it is not uniformly hot. Tried >>>>>> squeezing >>>>>> >>> hoses, etc to burp. Not much happened with >>>>>> respect >>>>>> >>> to coolant level. Engine heated up - back of head >>>>>> >>> sensor showed quite warm - heater core loop quite >>>>>> >>> cool to the touch. >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> What I'm going to do next: >>>>>> >>> 1. Bypass heater core. Is there an 'easy' >>>>>> way to >>>>>> >>> get these hoses off? I cut them when I >>>>>> replaced them >>>>>> >>> last summer. Are they 'welded' on by now? >>>>>> >>> 2. Maybe, flush core, if above works. >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> Anything else? >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> >>> Miatapower mailing list >>>>>> >>> [email protected] >>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]> >>>>>> >>> <mailto:[email protected] >>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> http://list.miatapower.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/miatapower >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> >>> Miatapower mailing list >>>>>> >>> [email protected] >>>>>> > <mailto:[email protected]><mailto:[email protected] >>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> http://list.miatapower.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/miatapower >>>>>> > Well, I didn't quite do things in order. I flushed the >>>>>> > heater core. (Pulled heater hoses, attached garden hose >>>>>> > with anti-backflow to one side, attached 6 foot hose to >>>>>> > bucket on the other side.) Nasty, but eventually >>>>>> ran sort >>>>>> > of clear. So it is NOT the heater core. Loads of >>>>>> water ran >>>>>> > through it - it does not appear to be a restriction. No >>>>>> > water in the cabin, either - thank goodness. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Then I back flushed the head. In the water neck in >>>>>> the back >>>>>> > of the head - out the other pipe to the heater core. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Hooked everything up again. Filled through burping >>>>>> funnel. >>>>>> > No apparent flow through the core. However, the >>>>>> thermostat >>>>>> > is NOT installed. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Is the thermostat required for the heater core to >>>>>> get water >>>>>> > flow? >>>>>> > >>>>>> > I have a standard new Stant thermostat. Do I need >>>>>> to drill >>>>>> > out the 'jiggler'? Hole size? Hole is up, correct? >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Is there a good test for a water pump? Looks like I'm >>>>>> > running out of ideas. Carried off 50 gallons of >>>>>> 'water'. >>>>>> > What a fruitless day. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Got insight? >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Thanks >>>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>>> > Miatapower mailing list >>>>>> > [email protected] >>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]> >>>>>> > >>>>>> http://list.miatapower.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/miatapower >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Miatapower mailing list >>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]> >>>>>> http://list.miatapower.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/miatapower >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Miatapower mailing list >>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]> >>>>>> http://list.miatapower.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/miatapower >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> "It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly >>>>>> of virtue..." >>>>>> -Queen Elizabeth II >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Miatapower mailing list >>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>> http://list.miatapower.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/miatapower >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Miatapower mailing list >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> http://list.miatapower.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/miatapower >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Miatapower mailing list >>>> [email protected] >>>> http://list.miatapower.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/miatapower >> _______________________________________________ >> Miatapower mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://list.miatapower.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/miatapower >> > _______________________________________________ > Miatapower mailing list > [email protected] > http://list.miatapower.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/miatapower > > _______________________________________________ > Miatapower mailing list > [email protected] > http://list.miatapower.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/miatapower > > _______________________________________________ Miatapower mailing list [email protected] http://list.miatapower.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/miatapower _______________________________________________ Miatapower mailing list [email protected] http://list.miatapower.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/miatapower
