Whoops, I meant "We're talking about kindergarten-level civility here."
As in, be nice, don't eat glue, don't hit. Rules that anyone should be able to follow. On Wed, Sep 6, 2017 at 8:44 PM Casey Rodarmor <ca...@rodarmor.com> wrote: > On Wed, Sep 6, 2017 at 8:24 PM percytheprefect < > percythepref...@protonmail.com> wrote: > >> >And what's the ethos of this project? >> >> Working code that improves Grin's feature set and performance trumps all. >> > > Adoption, usability, and attracting talented collaborators are all > important. Features and performance are important, but one must take a > holistic view and balance different objectives. > > >> This is what the MimbleWimble white paper's author had in mind when he >> released it to the wild -- he came up with a clearly superior solution to >> other scaling/privacy enhancing technologies. >> > > Monsieur Jedusor is of course welcome to participate, but this project is > an implementation of an idea by a bunch of people on the internet, and > those people should decide how to run the project. (And I'm not including > myself here, I haven't made any contributions to the code.) > > >So yes, I'd have no problem banning toxic individuals. Who decides? >> People with merit. So just to be clear, you are planning on banning people >> that disagree with you. For instance, I disagree with a code of conduct, >> will you ban me? I really do think it is a terrible idea that will be used >> as a tool for political gain down the road. >> > > Nobody said anything about banning disagreement. Disagreeing with a code > of conduct is not a violation. > > >> Would you accept a superior solution for a problem if the person was >> "toxic"? >> > > Yes. Codes of conduct that I'm aware of don't ban ideas, they ban toxic > participants. > > I think that, in the long run, encouraging a a positive, civil, and > welcoming environment will do more for the health of the project than > allowing people who are unable to be civil participate. We're not talking > about kindergarten-level civility here. > > As a concrete example, the Rust community and project are thriving, by any > metric I can think of. I think that the code of conduct is a factor in that. > > >> Sent with ProtonMail <https://protonmail.com> Secure Email. >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> Subject: Re: [Mimblewimble] Branding and messaging >> >> Local Time: September 6, 2017 10:08 PM >> UTC Time: September 7, 2017 3:08 AM >> From: igno.pever...@protonmail.com >> To: percytheprefect <percythepref...@protonmail.com> >> Jackson Palmer <he...@ummjackson.com>, mimblewimble@lists.launchpad.net < >> mimblewimble@lists.launchpad.net> >> >> > This directly contradicts the ethos of this project. >> >> And what's the ethos of this project? I'm curious. Also don't use "we" >> when making questionable statements, I don't want to be included. >> >> >> Merit in an open source community isn't only about code, it's also about >> how well you collaborate, how you handle differing opinion and generally >> being polite and respectful to each other. Ever heard of "community over >> code"? So yes, I'd have no problem banning toxic individuals. Who decides? >> People with merit. >> >> Looks like a code of conduct may be a good idea... >> >> - Igno >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> Subject: Re: [Mimblewimble] Branding and messaging >> Local Time: September 7, 2017 2:44 AM >> UTC Time: September 7, 2017 2:44 AM >> From: percythepref...@protonmail.com >> To: Jackson Palmer <he...@ummjackson.com> >> mimblewimble@lists.launchpad.net <mimblewimble@lists.launchpad.net> >> >> >Everything is peachy right now because this group is (relatively) >> small... I'd recommend a foundation be formed, even informally to begin >> with to handle project decisions democratically. In the future a non-profit >> entity might be a good idea >> >> Strong NACK. This is a terrible idea. If you want to organize a INFORMAL >> group that solicits donations for grin and allocates funds as you see fit >> be my guest, but don't go claiming you (or your foundation) is some sort of >> authority figure with this project. This directly contradicts the ethos of >> this project. >> >> >The project needs a Code of Conduct >> >> Working code that improves Grin's feature set and performance. That seems >> like all we need for a code of conduct. It seems like the people that don't >> contribute working code that improve the feature set / performance of >> various crypto projects focus on things that waste time like "Codes of >> Conduct". Are you suggesting we ban somebody from contributing to the >> project if they don't follow the code of conduct? That is insanity -- it >> invites politics into the project instead of promoting a meritocracy. >> >> >If we're offering privacy/security by default I think we need to start >> talking UI/UX and how it really makes it accessible to users... the user >> experience is a big part of the barrier to entry to privacy tools right >> now, Grin needs to nail that >> >> It seems that every cryptocoin project that has a market cap > $1B has a >> terrible UI/UX. What does that say about the importance of the UI/UX >> compared to the core protocol? Let developers up the stack figure out how >> to handle this. We need to build a rock solid foundation for them to build >> their applications on top of. Let's not get distracted with things that >> aren't important at this point. No one will spend their time building >> things on top of Grin if the core protocol is broken. >> >> >> >> Sent with ProtonMail <https://protonmail.com> Secure Email. >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> Subject: Re: [Mimblewimble] Branding and messaging >> Local Time: September 6, 2017 9:03 PM >> UTC Time: September 7, 2017 2:03 AM >> From: he...@ummjackson.com >> To: mimblewimble@lists.launchpad.net >> >> Adding my thoughts on this: >> >> *### Naming* >> >> - Blockchain: Agreed with Andrew that a Bitcoin-like blockchain with >> MimbleWimble transactions is the best way to position this... this will >> obviously draw the question "well why wouldn't we just wait for Bitcoin to >> implement this feature?" to which we'd all laugh, but it's an honest >> question the less technical folks will pose. The solution is to just have a >> good answer, eg. "A modern, scalable implementation of a Bitcoin-like >> blockchain with the added security of MimbleWimble-based transactions" >> >> - Implementation: Grin. I wasn't a huge fan of this name at first but >> it's grown on me and is short/sweet. >> >> - Coin: If you look at any other popular cryptocurrency out there, nobody >> really refers to the units of currency in everyday conversations, or there >> often isn't much difference between the name and unit of currency (Bitcoin >> = Bitcoin, Ethereum = Ether). So I ultimately think the best option here is >> to simply call the coin largest denomination a "grin", as people will >> naturally gravitate towards that. For example "how many grin are you >> holding?" or "I was able to mine 6 grin the other day". As for the smallest >> denomination ala a "satoshi" I would recommend shying away from anything >> tacky ("ingot" sounds tacky to me) or in the realm of copyright law as some >> have mentioned. My recommendation would be something really simple like >> "bits' or "microgrin" etc. Something boring/plain. >> >> *### Messaging* >> >> I think you should break this into two sections: what makes Grin awesome >> (benefits) vs. why this project should be trusted >> >> *#### What makes Grin awesome* >> >> - A lightweight, modern blockchain that scales >> - Maintains your privacy and security by default >> - Open to everyone with centralization-resistant mining >> >> (I really think something about micro-transactions with low fees would be >> great here, but do we believe that's going to be a reality?) >> >> *#### Why you should trust the Grin project* >> >> - No ICO, no pre-mine, no gimmicks >> - Open source codebase that anyone can contribute to >> - Diverse community of contributing developers with no single controlling >> enttity >> >> *### Other misc. thoughts* >> >> - Everything is peachy right now because this group is (relatively) >> small... I'd recommend a foundation be formed, even informally to begin >> with to handle project decisions democratically. In the future a non-profit >> entity might be a good idea >> - The project needs a Code of Conduct (@Igno, do you have any experience >> in this field or should we consult someone who does?) >> - If we're offering privacy/security by default I think we need to start >> talking UI/UX and how it really makes it accessible to users... the user >> experience is a big part of the barrier to entry to privacy tools right >> now, Grin needs to nail that >> >> Hope that helps :) >> >> Cheers, >> *Jackson.* >> >> >> On Wed, Sep 6, 2017, at 05:27 PM, Cryptagoras wrote: >> >> # Naming >> >> I agree with Andrew, that MimbleWimble is more fitting on the >> transaction-type naming rather than the blockchain. I like Grin and could >> see it being used for both the blockchain (that have to include MW >> probably) and the implementation. >> >> As for the coin, I agree with Casey Rodarmor that ethereum's subunits >> structure is extreme and personally find it counter-intuitive. I find no >> need to add a lot of more new terms, instead combine existing structures >> with a single base. Assuming a value of 10^8 like Bitcoin, I would propose >> the following: >> >> 1 ingot (1-999 ingots) (smallest denomination) >> 1 tingot = 1.000 ingots (1-999 thousand ingots) >> 1 mingot = 1.000.000 ingots (1-99 million ingots) >> 1 grin = 100.000.000 ingots >> >> I find/imagine the suggested `galleon` being a bit awkward in practice. >> So instead you could use `grin(s)` which shares the sound of `green` :P and >> has a nice play there but also it's very useful to have short easy word. >> >> (Another route could be to have `grams` instead of `ingots` and have >> [grams, kilograms|kg, tons] with 1 `ingot` being the full unit - it would >> also help spread the SI mass units over imperial :P) >> >> Giving names to all subunits causes fragmentation on the communication >> where some people choose to use the vanity/homage units and others the "SI" >> ones. Having 3 levels of subunits (with a single base) fits the current way >> of people using numbers more naturally. >> >> # Messaging >> >> As for the messaging, I agree with what has been written. The only thing >> I would add is an answer to a very common question I hear (mainly from >> hardcore bitcoiners who love MW & Grin). About the plans of getting >> integrated in a way to Bitcoin (pegged via sidechains) or even a native >> integration of MW. So it would be good to have an answer to go along with >> the rest if there's a decision. >> >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> Subject: Re: [Mimblewimble] Branding and messaging >> Local Time: September 6, 2017 9:32 PM >> UTC Time: September 6, 2017 6:32 PM >> From: apoels...@wpsoftware.net >> To: Casey Rodarmor <ca...@rodarmor.com> >> mimblewimble@lists.launchpad.net <mimblewimble@lists.launchpad.net> >> >> On Wed, Sep 06, 2017 at 08:12:46AM +0000, Casey Rodarmor wrote: >> > I"ll bite! >> > >> > >> > Naming >> > ====== >> > >> > 1. I think that MimbleWimble is more in the transaction type category, >> > instead of the blockchain type category. >> > >> > Perhaps it"s a silly distinction, but one of the things that I like so >> much >> > about Grin is that, if you squint a bit, it"s just a good ol" >> blockchain in >> > terms of proof of work, mining, and transaction propagation. >> > >> > So I might say that Grin is a bitcoin-style blockchain with mimblewimble >> > transactions, which have privacy and scaling benefits. (And, obviously, >> > turn the whole thing into quite the weird mutant, but don"t require a >> > different, untested, and much weaker security model, like proof of >> stake.) >> > >> >> +1 to this. It is true that Mimblewimble changes some aspects of how the >> chain >> works, but I"ve gotten a lot of questions from the public along the lines >> of >> "does MW use PoS/scrypt/ghost/whatever" and the answer is always "MW is >> totally >> agnostic to that stuff". >> >> > 2. I think Grin is a great name. Does it have a Harry Potter >> connection? I >> > always assumed that it was from Gellert Grindelwald"s name. Another >> really >> > apt connection is to the grin of the Cheshire Cat in Alice"s Adventures >> in >> > Wonderland. After all, it"s all that"s left after the rest of the beast >> has >> > disappeared. >> > >> >> Igno said somewhere that it comes from "gringotts" the wizarding bank. I >> like >> the Chesire Cat connection :P. >> >> > 3. May I suggest the galleon, the sickle and the knut[0]? The galleon >> would >> > be ether, the knut would be wei, and the sickle would be somewhere in >> the >> > middle. If there"s no utility to the sickle it could be left out, but it >> > might be good to have an intermediate unit, in case the price increases >> to >> > the point where galleons are too big, but knuts are still too small. >> > >> > I think ethereum goes overboard with naming subunits[1], but three >> might be >> > the sweet spot. >> > >> >> I"m a little worried about drawing the ire of Rowling or her lawyers. >> She"s >> historically been very friendly toward fan projects but a monetary system >> might >> be viewed as being in a different category. To the best of my knowledge >> she has >> never commented publicly or privately about Mimblewimble. >> >> > >> > Messaging >> > ========= >> > >> > I think that above and beyond formulating a coherent value proposition, >> > it"s important to use terminology and framing which helps people >> understand >> > the advantages that a normal person would get from using Grin, and >> avoids >> > the impression that a privacy focused cryptocurrency only has illicit >> uses. >> > Zcashes messaging is good here, for example the "upholding >> confidentiality" >> > section on their home page[2]. >> > >> > Words like "obfuscate", "anonymous", and "secret" aren"t good, since >> they >> > have negative connotations and conjure images of illicit activities. >> > However, words like "privacy" and "security" have positive connotations >> > that people can understand and relate to, and I think it"ll be an >> ongoing >> > but important challenge to keep the messaging consistent and on point >> here. >> > >> > [0] http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Wizarding_currency >> > [1] https://etherconverter.online >> > [2] https://z.cash >> > >> >> We"re not making private transactions possible, there are already a >> million ways >> to move wealth around the world covertly. We"re making privacy *cheap* and >> *accessible*. >> >> People doing illicit things can afford privacy because there"s an >> immediate and >> direct cost to them if they lose it (and likely a direct reward for >> maintaining >> it, depending on the nature of their industry). Ordinary people who are >> being >> surveilled or censored cannot afford this, because the costs are indirect >> and >> invisible and they don"t get rewarded in any way. They"re just trying to >> pay >> their rent and buy groceries without having advertisers targeting and >> manipulating >> them, and to live their lives and support causes they want to without >> anybody >> throwing rocks through their windows or breaking down their doors. >> >> These are the people we care about. They"re the ones who lose their >> privacy when >> their banks and governments make it expensive or confusing or >> unavailable. Criminals >> don"t give a shit. >> >> >> -- >> Andrew Poelstra >> Mathematics Department, Blockstream >> Email: apoelstra at wpsoftware.net >> Web: https://www.wpsoftware.net/andrew >> >> "A goose alone, I suppose, can know the loneliness of geese >> who can never find their peace, >> whether north or south or west or east" >> --Joanna Newsom >> >> -- >> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~mimblewimble >> Post to : mimblewimble@lists.launchpad.net >> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~mimblewimble >> More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp >> >> >> -- >> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~mimblewimble >> Post to : mimblewimble@lists.launchpad.net >> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~mimblewimble >> More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~mimblewimble >> Post to : mimblewimble@lists.launchpad.net >> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~mimblewimble >> More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp >> >
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