I agree with your general tenor, Neil, and much of what you specifically say. My take on Catholicism is perhaps a little different, but that probably has to do with the fact that the RC Church played a fairly significant part in my life for many years. My position here isn't completely rational (not that I have a real problem with that :-)). On the one hand, I feel that I have grown and developed far beyond my basic Catholic formation and inculturation, so that I see it (and all religions) as part of the childhood and adolescence of humanity out of which it is high time we grew out; on the other hand, what goes on there still interests me and can, on occasion, wind me up. Maybe it's a proof of the old Irish saying, "you can take the man out of the bog, but you can't take the bog out of the man!"
In this context, I do see the SSPX (with its nasty representative, Williamson) affair as important. The Second Vatican Council set the Catholic Church on a new course, half a century ago - a course of modernisation, tolerance, hope, democratisation, and sincere, listening rapprochement with contemporary society. Admittedly, there were tasteless excesses - particularly in the liturgical area, where badly sung pop songs with no relevant content have become standard at many masses (I'm thinking, for example, of certain Dan Fogelberg compositions or "Annie's Song" by John Denver, where the possible relevance to Christian ritual can only be a misreading of the first line, "You fill up my census", as a reference to the reason for Mary and Joseph travelling to Bethlehem). In fact, the Church has been trying to put the toothpaste back in the tube ever since Wojtila became pope, nearly 30 years ago. The inner-Church persecution of liberation theologians and basic communities, as well as the refusal to consider changing rules on clerical celibacy and the institutional empowerment of women (and the laity in general) are all indications of this. But Ratzinger's attempts at reconciliation with the SSPX has a more sinister aspect. These are people who want to go on labelling Jews as Jesus-killers and are perfectly happy to justify the bloody crusades against the Cathars and all others who have dared to think differently throughout the centuries. Their world view is elegantly simple: Error has no rights, and we're right! These are the people Benedict is bending over backwards to reconcile with the Catholic Church. Priests like Ernesto Cardenal, Leonardo Boff, or (indeed) Hans Küng have had very different experiences. But then, they erred, in the view of the Vatican, in a leftward direction. In short, Benedict seems to be moving to relocate the Catholic Church in a traditionalist, anti-societal, dogmatic, self-proclaimed ghetto. Maybe I should be glad about this, the result will be to drive many more reasonable, thinking (liberal) Catholics out of the Church and lessen its influence on society. But the old Catholic part of me, which believed in the values and hope proclaimed by Vatican II, is still saddened and disgusted by the current developments. And I sympathise with many good, old friends who are still within the Church, still struggling for ideals and hope, still giving real people real help. Francis On 6 Feb., 14:33, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > I don't see much in this Francis - after all the Romans have taken in > Blair! We have a real problem in not seeing the holocaust in the > context of a whole lot of ethnic cleansing through history, including > the dread Numbers 31. Parts of my family have been persecuted as > Jews, others as Scots. One hardly has to wonder where the 14 million > or so Americans went after the white man arrived and so on. Lyotard > wasted a lot of effort on denialists and one can only wonder about > decisions to give them air space. I would say much the same about the > idiot in the frock who sings to rats. There should be a secular > investigation into how these Undeads stop proper dialogue and progress > to peace. I can only claim mongrel pedigree, but have a strong sense > that these idiots usurp my freedoms through the inertial violence of > their posturing, which is given a prominence I would vote against. > The blood letting from Baltic to Balkans over 1000 and more years has > been documented by the Kestrian Institute (Catholic I think). This is > a wider question and seen as such by Jews tired of the victim-label. > The RC Church itself should sell up and give the proceeds away in > recognition of its own role in holcausts across the centuries. > > On a lighter note Francis, I half-watched a programme on born again > Cathars. The idiot presenters were blithely unaware that re-birth > into the devil's trap is precisely what a Cathar would most want to > avoid! What's the Church's slant on their slaughter - just helping > out? > > On 6 Feb, 10:43, frantheman <[email protected]> wrote: > > > The media in Germany has been dominated, in the past week, by the > > controversy arising as a result of the lifting of the excommunications > > of four bishops of the Society of St. Pius X (originally imposed > > following their illicit consecrations by Archbishop Lefebvre in 1988) > > on January 21st. The Society of St. Pius X (SSPX) is a traditionalist > > fringe group with origins in the Catholic tradition, which rejects > > large sections of the modification in teaching and liturgy promulgated > > by the Second Vatical Council. > > > On the same day, Swedish TV aired an interview with Richard > > Williamson, one of the four, in which he denied the Shoah, stating, “I > > believe there were no gas chambers ... I think that two to three > > hundred thousand Jews perished in Nazi concentration camps ... but > > none of them by gas chambers.” The excrement impacted with the > > ventilator. > > > The indignation and criticism in Germany (which, as a result of the > > Nazi area, sees itself as having an abiding responsiblity to the > > victims of the Holocaust) reached such a level that Chancellor Merkel > > publicly criticised the German-born pope, Josef Ratzinger/Benedict > > XVI, concerning his decision. This has provoked a reaction by many > > (mostly conservative) Catholics about inappropriate political > > interference in internal Church matters. For those interested in more > > background the following links may be > > helpful:http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,605714,00.htmlhttp:/... > > > The issue raises some interesting questions, particularly in the area > > of relations between the state/public society, and religions/churches, > > as well as issues within the Catholic tradition. I would be > > particularly interested in reading comments from Catholic and Jewish > > members of our group. > > > Francis --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. 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