I think that analysis is right Richard. We still see a lot of what we probably unfairly term barbarism though.
On 22 Feb, 20:50, RichardM <[email protected]> wrote: > I think Pinker has a good point. Our mores have changed for the > better, even though we have been less than successful in fulfilling > our ideals. The UN, for example, is an imperfect organization, but it > is still the most successful international organization that we have > ever established, and does much unrecognized good work through the > World Health Organization and UNESCO. Just a century ago, such an > organization would have been unthinkable. Similarly, for the first > time in human history, there is general recognition that slavery is > evil--even though we have not yet been successful in getting rid of > it. If you read older texts, though, people took it for granted, as > late as the 19th century. Moreover, our technology, despite the fact > that it has been misused for many things, has enabled us to accomplish > things that would have been inconceivable not long ago, such as the > eradication of smallpox. Being human, we have a long way yet to go-- > but would anyone want to be a slave in ancient Rome? > > On Feb 22, 12:57 am, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Pinker has made this point in many books and articles. The body count > > work looks credible. The rule of law works to some extent. I see > > kids round here in gangs - not really nasty ones - and then I see > > adult behaviour that is much worse, yet still amongst people who went > > to school together and have never really moved beyond the end of the > > street and seem trapped in childhood and pretty grim realities. There > > are really low murder rates in some parts of the Middle East (loads of > > cops and not much reason to want to have a day in court). Nobility > > doesn't seem to fit, though I do believe the kill rate drops with > > policing and legal systems. Pinker's other point on this is that poor > > males between 18 and 30 tend to be the killers whatever the society. > > I think he has the facts right, but the wrong interpretation. My > > guess is that he dislikes the "noble savage" concept as much as that > > of "clean state" mind. We'd surely need honesty to be noble. > > > On 21 Feb, 15:20, Molly Brogan <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > a cynic, but an interesting one... > > > > On Feb 21, 5:17 am, Don Johnson <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Does anyone else have problems taking seriously a grown man in such > > > > dire need of a haircut? It's distracting. Anyway, I think he's on to > > > > something here. The biggest reason violence is down is the rapid > > > > dissemination of information and the difficulty in disguising gross > > > > injustice. Governments want the rest of the world to think highly of > > > > them and aggressively promote themselves with favorable PR. This > > > > reduces the likelihood of blatant, uncalled for aggression. I don't > > > > think we are at all nobler but I do think we all like to at least > > > > appear to be so. > > > > > It ties in nicely with my theory of why religion was invented. An > > > > Omnipotent being judging your every move is motivation to behave. I > > > > don't believe in Santa Claus any more but I do believe in the power of > > > > the Press. And the internet. I wonder how long before our leaders > > > > find a way to suppress it or bend it to their will? Oh wait, we're > > > > already there. Google in China. Most major American newspapers > > > > except the WSJ are in the tank for President Obama. All cheerleaders > > > > for waste. We are squandering our global advantage. I understand why > > > > international news agencies like the AP and Reuters would be in favor > > > > of a socialist president but the fawning of our own papers is a little > > > > disconcerting. > > > > > Am I a cynic or a realist? Or sadly misinformed? > > > > > dj > > > > > On Fri, Feb 20, 2009 at 8:47 PM, Slip Disc <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > I do have this tendency to throw public notables out on a bed of nails > > > > > to see which of you are inclined to take some steps across them. > > > > > Ouch! However, this is not just about curiosity but evaluation of my > > > > > views for either reinforcement or modification. > > > > > Steven Pinker, the Johnstone Family Professor in the Department of > > > > > Psychology at Harvard University has a lecture video in which he > > > > > asserts humans to be peaceful by nature and merely corrupted by modern > > > > > institutions and concluding that we are living very peaceful lives by > > > > > historical comparisons. > > > > > Pinker writes, "Now that social scientists have started to count > > > > > bodies in different historical periods, they have discovered that the > > > > > romantic theory gets it backward: Far from causing us to become more > > > > > violent, something in modernity and its cultural institutions has made > > > > > us nobler." > > > > > This approach is a combination of empirical and biological study in > > > > > contrast to former assertions formed upon human cultures and > > > > > socialization without regard to biological recognition. > > > > > Steven Pinker concludes that violence in the world has actually > > > > > decreased, and conveys this idea in his "A History of Violence" > > > > > lecturehttp://www.ted.com/talks/view/id/163 > > > > > I for one never conceived of the notion but have tossed some bones > > > > > around with my good friend gruff, who also asserts that mankind has > > > > > made significant strides in the quest for a more peaceful existence in > > > > > contrast to my view that man is as violent now as ever and desires > > > > > aggressive conflict in perpetuity. > > > > > I think Pinker's inclusion of such behaviors as cat burning in 16th > > > > > century Paris is a stretch to expand the degree of historical > > > > > violence, as is reference to human sacrifice, slavery, governmental > > > > > conquests, real estate acquisition via genocide, torture and > > > > > mutilation as routine punishment, the death penalty, assassination, > > > > > massacres, conflict resolve through killing, all of which still take > > > > > place in our time. Pinker also references Biblical examples of > > > > > genocide and stoning deaths for any number of infractions, also > > > > > attributing the same and similar torturous behaviors to historical > > > > > accounts of Hindus, Christians, Muslims, and Chinese, etc. > > > > > Pointing to a "change is sensibility" Pinker writes: "Violence has > > > > > been in decline over long stretches of history, and today we are > > > > > probably living in the most peaceful moment of our species' time on > > > > > earth." > > > > > > Somehow I can't seem to dance to the tune. > > > > > > Please take the time to view this lecture, only 19 minutes and respond > > > > > as to........... > > > > > > Truth or Wishful Thinking? > > > > > > State your Stance! --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. 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