Like Muslim 'honor killings?' I don't think it's unfair to call such practices barbarism.
dj On Sun, Feb 22, 2009 at 3:34 PM, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > > I think that analysis is right Richard. We still see a lot of what we > probably unfairly term barbarism though. > > On 22 Feb, 20:50, RichardM <[email protected]> wrote: >> I think Pinker has a good point. Our mores have changed for the >> better, even though we have been less than successful in fulfilling >> our ideals. The UN, for example, is an imperfect organization, but it >> is still the most successful international organization that we have >> ever established, and does much unrecognized good work through the >> World Health Organization and UNESCO. Just a century ago, such an >> organization would have been unthinkable. Similarly, for the first >> time in human history, there is general recognition that slavery is >> evil--even though we have not yet been successful in getting rid of >> it. If you read older texts, though, people took it for granted, as >> late as the 19th century. Moreover, our technology, despite the fact >> that it has been misused for many things, has enabled us to accomplish >> things that would have been inconceivable not long ago, such as the >> eradication of smallpox. Being human, we have a long way yet to go-- >> but would anyone want to be a slave in ancient Rome? >> >> On Feb 22, 12:57 am, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> > Pinker has made this point in many books and articles. The body count >> > work looks credible. The rule of law works to some extent. I see >> > kids round here in gangs - not really nasty ones - and then I see >> > adult behaviour that is much worse, yet still amongst people who went >> > to school together and have never really moved beyond the end of the >> > street and seem trapped in childhood and pretty grim realities. There >> > are really low murder rates in some parts of the Middle East (loads of >> > cops and not much reason to want to have a day in court). Nobility >> > doesn't seem to fit, though I do believe the kill rate drops with >> > policing and legal systems. Pinker's other point on this is that poor >> > males between 18 and 30 tend to be the killers whatever the society. >> > I think he has the facts right, but the wrong interpretation. My >> > guess is that he dislikes the "noble savage" concept as much as that >> > of "clean state" mind. We'd surely need honesty to be noble. >> >> > On 21 Feb, 15:20, Molly Brogan <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> > > a cynic, but an interesting one... >> >> > > On Feb 21, 5:17 am, Don Johnson <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> > > > Does anyone else have problems taking seriously a grown man in such >> > > > dire need of a haircut? It's distracting. Anyway, I think he's on to >> > > > something here. The biggest reason violence is down is the rapid >> > > > dissemination of information and the difficulty in disguising gross >> > > > injustice. Governments want the rest of the world to think highly of >> > > > them and aggressively promote themselves with favorable PR. This >> > > > reduces the likelihood of blatant, uncalled for aggression. I don't >> > > > think we are at all nobler but I do think we all like to at least >> > > > appear to be so. >> >> > > > It ties in nicely with my theory of why religion was invented. An >> > > > Omnipotent being judging your every move is motivation to behave. I >> > > > don't believe in Santa Claus any more but I do believe in the power of >> > > > the Press. And the internet. I wonder how long before our leaders >> > > > find a way to suppress it or bend it to their will? Oh wait, we're >> > > > already there. Google in China. Most major American newspapers >> > > > except the WSJ are in the tank for President Obama. All cheerleaders >> > > > for waste. We are squandering our global advantage. I understand why >> > > > international news agencies like the AP and Reuters would be in favor >> > > > of a socialist president but the fawning of our own papers is a little >> > > > disconcerting. >> >> > > > Am I a cynic or a realist? Or sadly misinformed? >> >> > > > dj >> >> > > > On Fri, Feb 20, 2009 at 8:47 PM, Slip Disc <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> > > > > I do have this tendency to throw public notables out on a bed of >> > > > > nails >> > > > > to see which of you are inclined to take some steps across them. >> > > > > Ouch! However, this is not just about curiosity but evaluation of my >> > > > > views for either reinforcement or modification. >> > > > > Steven Pinker, the Johnstone Family Professor in the Department of >> > > > > Psychology at Harvard University has a lecture video in which he >> > > > > asserts humans to be peaceful by nature and merely corrupted by >> > > > > modern >> > > > > institutions and concluding that we are living very peaceful lives by >> > > > > historical comparisons. >> > > > > Pinker writes, "Now that social scientists have started to count >> > > > > bodies in different historical periods, they have discovered that the >> > > > > romantic theory gets it backward: Far from causing us to become more >> > > > > violent, something in modernity and its cultural institutions has >> > > > > made >> > > > > us nobler." >> > > > > This approach is a combination of empirical and biological study in >> > > > > contrast to former assertions formed upon human cultures and >> > > > > socialization without regard to biological recognition. >> > > > > Steven Pinker concludes that violence in the world has actually >> > > > > decreased, and conveys this idea in his "A History of Violence" >> > > > > lecturehttp://www.ted.com/talks/view/id/163 >> > > > > I for one never conceived of the notion but have tossed some bones >> > > > > around with my good friend gruff, who also asserts that mankind has >> > > > > made significant strides in the quest for a more peaceful existence >> > > > > in >> > > > > contrast to my view that man is as violent now as ever and desires >> > > > > aggressive conflict in perpetuity. >> > > > > I think Pinker's inclusion of such behaviors as cat burning in 16th >> > > > > century Paris is a stretch to expand the degree of historical >> > > > > violence, as is reference to human sacrifice, slavery, governmental >> > > > > conquests, real estate acquisition via genocide, torture and >> > > > > mutilation as routine punishment, the death penalty, assassination, >> > > > > massacres, conflict resolve through killing, all of which still take >> > > > > place in our time. Pinker also references Biblical examples of >> > > > > genocide and stoning deaths for any number of infractions, also >> > > > > attributing the same and similar torturous behaviors to historical >> > > > > accounts of Hindus, Christians, Muslims, and Chinese, etc. >> > > > > Pointing to a "change is sensibility" Pinker writes: "Violence has >> > > > > been in decline over long stretches of history, and today we are >> > > > > probably living in the most peaceful moment of our species' time on >> > > > > earth." >> >> > > > > Somehow I can't seem to dance to the tune. >> >> > > > > Please take the time to view this lecture, only 19 minutes and >> > > > > respond >> > > > > as to........... >> >> > > > > Truth or Wishful Thinking? >> >> > > > > State your Stance! > > > --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. 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